AutoRX, 24k miles BMW, Synthetic Oil

[Jim 5]

Hello to all. This is my first post, and I have enjoyed reading many of the posts on this excellent forum.

I recently bought a used 2003 BMW 330ci (3.0L inline 6). I discovered right after the purchase that the original owner followed the oil change inverval based on the onboard computer.

This means that the oil was changed every 12K miles with BMW Castrol Full Synthetic 5w-30.

With 3k miles on the oil, the dipstick shows a pretty dark oil...and the oil cap has some residue.

I want to do an AutoRX treatment and understand that the cleaning phase should be done with dino oil. A have a few concerns about this, mostly concentrating on the use of dino oil in an engine that specifies full synthetic:

1. BMW specifies a full synthetic for this car. Presumably this is so that the BMW oil can (questionably) last the full 12k miles OCI prescribed by the car's computer. This may be a stupid question, but assuming no overheating, will dino oil lubricate as well as synthetic, provided that the dino oil only goes the 2k miles for the rinse phase?

2. I drive this BMW only about 5K miles per year. Some of this is in -20 Celcius weather. Will a decent dino oil of the same grade as BMW synthetic provide equivalent cold weather protection? ..I anticipate my rinse phase will stretch into the winter months.

2. Another stupid question. My goal here is to clean out the engine given the really long OCI's this BMW has experienced. My wife's 03 Acura (bought new) has had Mobil 1 oil changes at every 3k miles (I know it's too often, but I negotiated 12 free oil changes when I bought the car...to preserve warranty I had them use these intervals and I provided the M1)...after 2k miles, the oil still looks like apple juice on the dipstick...really clean. Can I expect an engine this clean on my BMW after an ARX treatment?


My apologies if these are stupid questions, but I'm just a little freaked out by the fact that the previous owner went 12k OCI's on my new baby.

Anyone's thoughts would be very much appreciated!

 

[Jim 5]

By the way...The 03 Acura TL has 38k miles on it.

 

[Quest]

IMHO running a dino rinse for 2K run is ok even though BMW calls for synthetic. Afterall: there is no "clear" definition as to what qualifies as "real synthetic" nowadays, esp. when Castrol Syntheic is not really a "full, group IV synthetic" to begin with.

In terms of lubricity and general lubrication protection, most good quality dino oils (Havoline, Castrol GTX, Chevron, etc.) are excellent for providing necessary protections to all engines.

just go with a 2K run of dino oil and you'll be home free.

If you still worry about wear and tear when using dino oil during rinse phase, consider doing a VOA and UOA during the rinse and you'll be alright.

 

[JHZR2]

I dont think that a 330 I6 is sludge prone, etc.

Go for it.

JMH

 

[Rick20]

Auto-Rx can be run with any oil in the cleaning phase. It is the rinse phase that a plain jane dino has been recommended. If you do chose to run a "synthetic" oil for rinsing, pick one that utilizes a group III base stock. Basically an ultra clean dino oil. For a 2000 mile run, I'd use cheap dino. But then again, I don't drive a beamer.

 

[goodvibes]

Dino would be fine but if you're worried about it, just do a short change of M1 EP with some Lube Control. 5k should even be fine if you're dirty as there's lots of cleaning and TBN reserve in the EP. I doubt that you've got badly stuck rings major sludge or seal problems at that mileage with the factory interval. The extra cleaning of the EP plus the solvencey of LC should be enough to take care of whatever minor issues you may have. I bet 1 fill gets you spotless.

 

[Gary Allan]

JHZR2

Your manners

Jim5:

 

[Audi Junkie]

I dont think that a 330 I6 is sludge prone, etc.

Go for it.

It is. My neighbour just got an '03 X5 3.0 48k and it's sludged quite a bit.

 

[rich mds]

I would say a dino 2k rinse oil is ok. I have several family members and friends that own 3's 5's 7's, Mini's and at the 10-15k change mark even though its synthetic you should see how black and thick the oil gets. Not to mention that if the driver is say a mom and doesnt check the oil gets dangerously low. So running dino for 2k shouldnt be that hazardous to the engine, or no more than running Syntec to 10K miles.

I used to insist on changing my girlfriends every 5k and even then the oil was 1 qt low and very dark.

 

[Jim 5]

Thanks for the welcome!

That 48k X5 probably has only had 3 oil changes.

Funny how the OCI more than doubled once BMW started covering oil changes during warranty.

I'm going to order the AutoRX today. Further to Quest's post above, I understand that a UOA = used oil analysis. Can somebody tell me what VOA means?

Thanks.

 

[znamya]

As 330Ci is my dream car, I wouldnt put any dino oil in it. As Rick said in another thread, the cleaning will be slower with synthetic oil, but you can change your oil in rinse at 3k instead of 2k to compensate for the synthetic effect.I dont think money is concern here so why not try with synthetic if that does not give you the cleaning that you are looking for, you can try with dino oil again. Wonderful car by the way, enjoy your drive ...

 

[jaj]

Jim 5

The BMW engines need at least an ACEA A3 rated oil, a spec which is met by many synthetic oils, but not by many dino oils.

DO NOT use any oil that isn't A3 at any time. For instance you can't use Mobil 1 5w-30 (ACEA A1), but you can use Mobil 1 0w-40 because it's A3 rated, and it has BMW's proprietary LL01 rating as well. German-made Castrol Syntec 0w-30 (also ACEA A3 and BMW LL01) is another good choice.

These synthetics are for regular running, if you don't just use the BMW oil, which is an excellent product in its own right.

For your rinse needs, the only ACEA A3 labeled conventional oil I've ever found was the CI-4 version of Chevron DELO 400 SAE 15w-40 before Chevron upgraded to CI-4+. You can probably find the older product at your local Husky/Mohawk station - at the back of the shelf of 4 litre jugs. The one you're looking for has ACEA A3 on the label - E3 and E5 don't count!

You can rinse with synthetic oil as well - it will take longer, but get you there eventually.

There are two reasons that BMW specs the synthetic oil: first, the VANOS system can be damaged if the oil's too thick. The cold-pumping properties of synthetic are important, so don't use conventional oil if the temperature is below about 10 degrees Celsius. Second, as you said, longevity.

Lastly, you won't have clean-looking oil after a few thousand KM's. BMW engines colour the oil, and that's that. It's not an issue, it's just the way they are!

Cheers
JJ

 

[segfault]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jaj:
DO NOT use any oil that isn't A3 at any time. For instance you can't use Mobil 1 5w-30 (ACEA A1), but you can use Mobil 1 0w-40 because it's A3 rated, and it has BMW's proprietary LL01 rating as well. German-made Castrol Syntec 0w-30 (also ACEA A3 and BMW LL01) is another good choice.

---

It's funny that BMW NA can't get their story straight on the oil requirement. I e-mailed them to ask for their currently recommended oils, and here is the relevant excerpt from the reply:

quote:

---

BMW recommends BMW High Performance Synthetic engine oil, Castrol Synthetic, Mobil 1 Synthetic, and Valvoline High Performance Synthetic - all with a weight of SAE 5W-30.

---

 

[FowVay]

When I bought my BMW I too was curious about which oils met the BMW LL specification. Previous Mercedes Benz ownership enlightened me to the idea that the manufacturer actually had a list of oils that had been tested and approved for use in specific engines. BMW doesn't seem to take their maintenance as seriously as Mercedes-Benz does.

I telephoned the number that is listed on a placard on my valve cover to enquire about which oils were recommended by BMW of NA. I received the response that ANY synthetic oil will work in my engine. This was puzzling because the placard says to use a specific BMW part number or to telephone their toll free number for a list of other approved lubricants. If any old wal-mart synthetic would work then why did they go to the trouble or placarding the engine with a information label?

 

[jaj]

Segfault, Fowvay

I've never talked to BMW directly, but the dealers are all over the map on what to use. I'm passing on what I've found over the last three years of reading and research, and it's pretty simple stuff, just hard to find.

The Mercedes system with their list is so darned sensible - if it's on the list, go ahead. BMW seems to take the view of "use our BMW branded oil". Since it's good stuff, that's ok, but what if you want to use something else?

The newer BMW engines (the Valvetronic and Direct-injection ones) use a lower HTHS oil than the previous generations. This makes a confused and vague situation even more confused and vague. For the rest of the engines out there, an A3 rated oil with an HTHS over 3.5 is safe to use, although not for the full length of time of the oil monitor. For that you need an LL-rated oil (LL-98 for 25,000KM, LL01 for 30,000KM, and LL04 for ??KM).

I have no doubt that AEHAAS's points about lower viscosity oils apply to this situation - you could run much thinner oils if you chose to, without much risk. You'd have to be steady on doing UOS's but you'd be ok. There are some BMW engines this won't work for, though - the E46 M3 needs 10w-60, period, or you risk spun bearings and an expensive repair.

Anyway, the BMW enthusiast community has raging "my oil's better than your oil" wars on an ongoing basis. For somebody that just wants to enjoy their car for a long time, stick with A3 oils and change twice as often as the service indicator.

Cheers
JJ

 

[segfault]

jaj,

I wasn't doubting you, just saying that it would be nice if BMW NA could come up with a coherent story regarding the oil requirements.

According to BMW, Mobil 1, Castrol, and Valvoline 5w30 synthetics are appropriate.

According to logical interpretation of the requirements, GC and Mobil 0w40 are appropriate, while the ones BMW NA recommends are not.

 

[jaj]

segfault

I wasn't doubting you, either! I was just rambling on, as I sometimes do. At least you took the time to contact BMW - I have to admit, it never occurred to me!

Cheers
JJ

 

[shortyb]

Jim 5

FWIW, here is a UOA done on my recently aquired 330i

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001962#000000

12.5K and doesn't look too bad IMO.

jaj-I don't know what you mean by BMW engines "color" the oil, but I do know that some reddish residue will form under the filler cap if you use the BMW "High-Performance" synth. Its just a matter of engine design, the filler area is baffled and not much vapor circulation occurs. Just take a short trip around the block and see how much condensation is there. It does not seem to hurt anything and is NOT an indicator of sludging.

I am in the final hundred miles or so of my ARX rinse using Castrol GTX. Its running just fine. No need to take it to the junkyard

. I plan to do the same thing again in another 50K. My opinion on using the ACEA A3 is do it for routine use, ie: OCIs (oil change intervals) 5-7K and beyond. Not that a M54 engine will shear down an oil quickly with 7 qts. capacity but it has some reserve in order to push a drain up to and past the 7500 mark. BMW specs it for their 15K drain for this reason I'm sure. For a 2K mile rinse phase drain, any quality dino should be fine. Like I said, this engine is not going to beat up the oil especially for this kind of short interval use.

 

[jaj]

shortyb

By "colour" I mean that the oil doesn't stay it's new, natural straw yellow. It turns red, then black, fairly quickly. Your point about this darkening is not an indicator of sludge is exactly what I was trying to say - but you said it better!

Cheers
JJ

 

[Jim 5]

Thank you for all of the information in the above posts.

I have purchased a case of M1 0w40 which I had planned to use to cut the OCI in half in between the oil changes BMW provides. The M1 specifically provides that it meets BMW's LL98 spec..and is factory fill on turbo porsche cayenne's, mercedes AMG models and many others. I really don't know much, but I think it's a good alternative to the BMW oil, which is also pretty good I think.

I like the idea of a 0w40 in Canada where it gets pretty cold and many canadain bmw owners have reported problems with Vanos due to oil that is too thick in very cold conditions. It is my understanding that the bmw 5w30 is at the very "thick" end of the 5w30 viscosity scale, and I've seen some comments indicating it is mislabelled viscosity-wise.

In any case, I spoke to frank at AutoRX and his issue with using a synthetic during the rinse phase is that the synthetic molecules polarize and attach to the metal, preventing the autoRX from doing its job.

What I can't tell from anything I've read is whether it is true that the same job can be done in rinse phase by a synthetic (assuming you extend the rinse phase) as can be done by a dino in a shorter rinse phase.

I'd sure be interested in people's thoughts on this point, because all things being equal, I'd prefer to stick with bmw approved oils at all times, and just extend the rinse phase.

Thanks for your comments everyone, and I look forward to some more!