You are going to vacuum the system out anyway.
Automotive AC troubleshooting 101 - help me get started?
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You are going to vacuum the system out anyway.
Then I'll find out shortly. It's getting hot out.
JHZR2
Staff member
There has been analysis done, which I’m sure is findable, that shows that even with a lot of vacuuming, moisture that is dispersed in the oil doesn’t really boil out. I am not sure the desiccant bag is reverted to bone dry either. Sure, remnant moisture from the ambient air is removed.
I feel it is you who are playing a lawyer here. The EPA states plain as day that these sections regulate all persons doing the AC repair/servicing for payment or bartering.
Please show me how it applies to an owner doing his/her own repairs.
JHZR2
Staff member
That’s a requirement for any person doing ac work for pay to be trained. That’s training and certification.
Not venting controlled substances to the atmosphere, or knowingly refilling systems that are known to be leaking, which is venting.
You asked AI before. Here’s my findings via AI:
And here’s a bit more specific language from the publically available ASE material:
What I recall is that the only exceptions are the "de minimis" venting during good-faith attempts to recover or dispose of refrigerant, normal emissions during the operation of equipment, or venting mixtures of nitrogen and refrigerant in specific situations (like leak testing with nitrogen).
Well, the EPA says that appliances under section 609 are not subject to section's 608 servicing requirements. And section 609 clearly states it applies to people doing commerce.
ASE material doesn't apply here because it's also commerce.
Not sure who is right in this case, but it's definitely not as clear cut as you originally made it out to be.
Edit:
Here is EPA's definition of a technician in section 608, which includes owners/operators. They clearly exclude MVACs.
ASE material doesn't apply here because it's also commerce.
Not sure who is right in this case, but it's definitely not as clear cut as you originally made it out to be.
Edit:
Here is EPA's definition of a technician in section 608, which includes owners/operators. They clearly exclude MVACs.
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If it was sealed it wouldn't be empty.
Seriously, this is a learning experience for me. By all right this thing should have been crushed 200K miles ago with any other owner. I am the only thing between it and the scrap heap.
I believe the oil reacts to moisture but that might not be all types so putting more moisture in could make it worse and unless you're replacing the desiccant afterwards it also hurts it more.
Yes, I haven't really decided what to do. I guess I will buy a pump, pull a vacuum, and see what I can see. The car is still not here. It comes home for the summer shortly.
If I do figure it out I will replace the desiccant bottle - it appears to be accessible without taking the condenser out.
Since I am accumulating (Pun intended) tools and parts for this event, should I buy some O-rings? Can I just get a kit like this, or should I try to order OEM or something?
I'd get a kit. Four seasons is fine for something that old but I'd prefer something better but availability becomes harder on older cars. But whatever you do don't use any sharp tool like a pick or very small flathead to remove the seals. So many people gouge the seal groove without knowing and you'll have a permanent slow bypass that no amount of gasket replacements will fix. Same applies for anything else with seals and pressure. If you need to use a pick to get some seals off be careful. Using a plastic pick like a dental one won't scratch it.
I suggest that you wait until you find the location of the leak before buying any replacement parts. It could be a bad Schrader valve, physical damage to the condenser, a porous leaking hose or many other . If it turns out to be an O-ring, you can just make a quick trip to Autozone, O'Reillys or Advance Auto and pick up the assortment shown below. Also, some replacement parts will already include the applicable o-rings.
JHZR2
Staff member
The law is written poorly, IMO. Perhaps there is a grey area, if so it’s funky.
Take the actual law, not synopses:
So it’s only folks working on automotive AC for money, but it’s anyone that touches automotive type AC for other equipment? So Farmer Bob is a felon if he charges his combine, but not his truck? After all, the term appliance is defined in the law as:
Well that seems downright silly. In fact, it’s probably really the opposite in actual intent. Fix a combine and it’s ok, fix your car and it’s an issue. After all, the aggregate release from on-road vehicles is waaaaay higher.
Look, If you think it’s fine to just vent refrigerant to the atmosphere, that’s on you.
To me, there’s enough in the quagmire of 608/609 that indicates that the obligation is to not vent, for me to take it that one should not vent. That includes topping up known leaking systems. Doesn’t matter if you’re getting paid or not, it’s just a stupid idea. Then again, people will poop in their drinking water if it’s convenient, or they think they’re spiting folks they don’t like…
And it’s not to mention that if you have a broken system, best practice is to actually fix it if you intend to use it…
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Be a steward of the environment, and try to avoid venting.
This opening scene from Dirty Jobs. I didn't realize it until recently, but that big cloud of white is the guy cutting the refrigerant lines. I wonder if they ever received a visit from the EPA.
This opening scene from Dirty Jobs. I didn't realize it until recently, but that big cloud of white is the guy cutting the refrigerant lines. I wonder if they ever received a visit from the EPA.
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101: Sounds dumb...don't forget your safety glasses.
Have you considered your oil needs for this job yet?
Quantity is always a guess, but the correct type isn't. Google shows it to be a PAG, you should be able to find that easily.
As you know some oil resides in the compressor, and some is always moving throughout the system. If there is a catastrophic leak, or if a component is replaced, oil should be added.
Better service manuals will contain a chart with the engineers' best guesstimate, of how much oil should be added for each component that is replaced. Also any of the O rings should be lubricated when installed. Silicone works, but oil is always a better choice.
A slow leak shouldn't require oil, but a condenser definitely would. Rule of thumb is 1-2 oz of oil for a condenser, 1/3 oz for a drier replacement.
So continuing on - you have all been so helpful. I feel like I know a lot more even though I have not done anything yet.
I need some PAG oil. This stuff specifically. Type: Poly alkylene glycol oil (PAG), type R. So is PAG oil PAG oil? Would the stuff below work? The manual tells me how much to use based on what ends up getting replaced.
Should I get also extra dye, or would this have enough in it?
I need some PAG oil. This stuff specifically. Type: Poly alkylene glycol oil (PAG), type R. So is PAG oil PAG oil? Would the stuff below work? The manual tells me how much to use based on what ends up getting replaced.
Should I get also extra dye, or would this have enough in it?
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I would wait. I just replaced the compressor on our subaru (Shaft seal failure). The new compressor came pre filled and the kit (rockauto) included a bottle of PAG oil also.
That is the correct PAG oil for your 2008 Nissan Xterra (and most vehicles that use R-134a). PAG oil comes in two viscosities; either PAG 46 (thinner) or PAG 100 (thicker). If you get the Nylog blue, use it as the lubricant for your o-rings. If you don't get the Nylog, apply PAG 46 to each o-ring. Don't apply both.
The Supercool PAG 46 has sufficient UV dye already, so you don't need to introduce any more. In fact, you will have already identified the location(s) of the leak before you add more PAG to the replaced component(s).
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Sounds like you are on the right course. A good manual takes the guess work out of it for you.
As stated above - if you replace the compressor it's a different path - the math for that should also be in your manual.
As stated above - if you replace the compressor it's a different path - the math for that should also be in your manual.
So I finally got everything, and connected it up, and the pump was not pulling any vacuum. It appears all my hoses have what appears to be a schrader valve in them. When I connect the yellow hose to the pump, no vacuum comes out the other end of the hose. I tried to remove the schrader valve - all it does is spin forever in both directions?
What am I doing wrong?
Edit - OK some quick trouble shooting - I swapped the red hose for the yellow hose - left closed the red valve. Its now pulling a vacuum on the system. I assume my hello hose is fubar?
Also while I am here, when I eventually get to pulling a vacuum - do I pull from both sides - ie both valves open - or only on the low pressure blue side?
What am I doing wrong?
Edit - OK some quick trouble shooting - I swapped the red hose for the yellow hose - left closed the red valve. Its now pulling a vacuum on the system. I assume my hello hose is fubar?
Also while I am here, when I eventually get to pulling a vacuum - do I pull from both sides - ie both valves open - or only on the low pressure blue side?
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