Automatic Tranny-Service Life wit/without ATFchang
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Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Other than conjecture, no one has or is able to answer the question of whether or not regular ATF changes will extend the life of the transmission. My two Toyota transmissions are over 200k miles on the factory fill. They both work fine. If they stop working fine, I'll do a drain and fill.
All the "experts" on here say to change the fluid. All the real experts that own shops tell me to let it be. Someone needs to be the control group for a scientific study, that will be me. I'm not changing it out. Well, other than the 700mL I already changed out to send a sample to Blackstone.
I hope you requested TAN from Blackstone or you are wasting your $$. Better yet Polaris who gives oxidation also. TBN/TAN is the condition of the additives while oxidation is the condition of the base lubricant.
I didn't request anything special.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Other than conjecture, no one has or is able to answer the question of whether or not regular ATF changes will extend the life of the transmission. My two Toyota transmissions are over 200k miles on the factory fill. They both work fine. If they stop working fine, I'll do a drain and fill.
All the "experts" on here say to change the fluid. All the real experts that own shops tell me to let it be. Someone needs to be the control group for a scientific study, that will be me. I'm not changing it out. Well, other than the 700mL I already changed out to send a sample to Blackstone.
I hope you requested TAN from Blackstone or you are wasting your $$. Better yet Polaris who gives oxidation also. TBN/TAN is the condition of the additives while oxidation is the condition of the base lubricant.
I didn't request anything special.
My father in law's 2005 Nissan Pathfinder went about 185k on the factory fill, until the transmission cooler in the radiator leaked and sent antifreeze into the trans and destroyed it. (Common problem with these models). He had the trans rebuilt and is still driving it. It has about 200k now.
With the cost of ZF automatics and everyones agenda (excluding the owner of the car) having THEIR bottom line.. I'd be doing regular service and sampling for piece of mind.
I've serviced my (ZF) Audi (w/Allison 295 and Kz33) 2Xs and @ 140K it shifts the way I like it. Last service, fluid (per sample) rated as fresh FWIW.
I've serviced my (ZF) Audi (w/Allison 295 and Kz33) 2Xs and @ 140K it shifts the way I like it. Last service, fluid (per sample) rated as fresh FWIW.
I'd seriously consider a cooler line flush.
If the transmission is fine now, you'd like it to stay that way for as long as you want to drive the thing.
There were some old-school automatics that would soak up abuse for as long as the car would last with no maintenance at all.
Think THM 350 or 400, or the Torqueflite 727.
That seems to be pretty rare with modern automatics.
If the transmission is fine now, you'd like it to stay that way for as long as you want to drive the thing.
There were some old-school automatics that would soak up abuse for as long as the car would last with no maintenance at all.
Think THM 350 or 400, or the Torqueflite 727.
That seems to be pretty rare with modern automatics.
Most cars go to the junkyard with their original ATF. Most cars NEVER get a transmission fluid change!
I think you should change the fluid as soon as soon as you can, hopefully by the end of the month.
There is nothing wrong with changing the fluid now. The only time you shouldn't change it is if the trans was *already* acting up, but in that case you wouldn't have bought the car in the first place.
Maxlife is great stuff and very popular here. About $16 per gallon at Walmart. There's also Peak Synthetic ATF at AAP, and Mag 1 Low-Vis ATF #64092 from Amazon.
I think you should change the fluid as soon as soon as you can, hopefully by the end of the month.
There is nothing wrong with changing the fluid now. The only time you shouldn't change it is if the trans was *already* acting up, but in that case you wouldn't have bought the car in the first place.
Maxlife is great stuff and very popular here. About $16 per gallon at Walmart. There's also Peak Synthetic ATF at AAP, and Mag 1 Low-Vis ATF #64092 from Amazon.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I'd seriously consider a cooler line flush.
If the transmission is fine now, you'd like it to stay that way for as long as you want to drive the thing.
There were some old-school automatics that would soak up abuse for as long as the car would last with no maintenance at all.
Think THM 350 or 400, or the Torqueflite 727.
That seems to be pretty rare with modern automatics.
Thank you, FDCG27. What is a cooler line flush ?
I'd seriously consider a cooler line flush.
If the transmission is fine now, you'd like it to stay that way for as long as you want to drive the thing.
There were some old-school automatics that would soak up abuse for as long as the car would last with no maintenance at all.
Think THM 350 or 400, or the Torqueflite 727.
That seems to be pretty rare with modern automatics.
Thank you, FDCG27. What is a cooler line flush ?
I flushed my Volvo right at 100k, which I also dumped in auto-rx for 4k miles before flushing. Used redline D4 and had no issues for 45k miles until I sold it.
The transmission will have two lines running to the radiator, where there is a heat exchanger (little radiator) built in to cool the ATF.
The idea is to remove the return line, slip some rubber hose over it and put the end of the hose in a five gallon bucket.
You run the engine at idle and add ATF at a rate to keep up with what's getting pumped out.
You continue this until the ATF comes out clean.
You'll need probably double the ATF capacity of the transmission on hand, maybe a little more.
Before doing this, remove the pan, if there is one, clean it and replace the filter.
Bet the pan will be loaded with clutch material and the magnet will be hidden under a large blob of metal paste.
This is the best you can do to maintain your automatic.
Fresh fluid can transform an aging automatic.
If it dies, it was going to anyway.
The idea is to remove the return line, slip some rubber hose over it and put the end of the hose in a five gallon bucket.
You run the engine at idle and add ATF at a rate to keep up with what's getting pumped out.
You continue this until the ATF comes out clean.
You'll need probably double the ATF capacity of the transmission on hand, maybe a little more.
Before doing this, remove the pan, if there is one, clean it and replace the filter.
Bet the pan will be loaded with clutch material and the magnet will be hidden under a large blob of metal paste.
This is the best you can do to maintain your automatic.
Fresh fluid can transform an aging automatic.
If it dies, it was going to anyway.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Other than conjecture, no one has or is able to answer the question of whether or not regular ATF changes will extend the life of the transmission. My two Toyota transmissions are over 200k miles on the factory fill. They both work fine. If they stop working fine, I'll do a drain and fill.
All the "experts" on here say to change the fluid. All the real experts that own shops tell me to let it be. Someone needs to be the control group for a scientific study, that will be me. I'm not changing it out. Well, other than the 700mL I already changed out to send a sample to Blackstone.
I am curious what experts your talking about? Are you referring to parts changer mechanics or actual transmission specialists? Ive talked to several trans builders over the years and their advice has always been the same...change the fluid.
How much clutch material do you suppose is in you filter in 200k miles? Once the filter becomes saturated and can no longer hold the wear materials it is now suspended in fluid which accelerates wear even faster. Heat is a killer of ATF. At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes and destroys the fluid's friction characteristics. Varnish begins to form on internal parts which interferes with the operation of the transmission. I've been told by more than one trans builder that for every 20 degrees above 175F, the life of ATF is cut in half. To me that's pretty substantial given that most vehicles run at 200F or higher.
Other than conjecture, no one has or is able to answer the question of whether or not regular ATF changes will extend the life of the transmission. My two Toyota transmissions are over 200k miles on the factory fill. They both work fine. If they stop working fine, I'll do a drain and fill.
All the "experts" on here say to change the fluid. All the real experts that own shops tell me to let it be. Someone needs to be the control group for a scientific study, that will be me. I'm not changing it out. Well, other than the 700mL I already changed out to send a sample to Blackstone.
I am curious what experts your talking about? Are you referring to parts changer mechanics or actual transmission specialists? Ive talked to several trans builders over the years and their advice has always been the same...change the fluid.
How much clutch material do you suppose is in you filter in 200k miles? Once the filter becomes saturated and can no longer hold the wear materials it is now suspended in fluid which accelerates wear even faster. Heat is a killer of ATF. At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes and destroys the fluid's friction characteristics. Varnish begins to form on internal parts which interferes with the operation of the transmission. I've been told by more than one trans builder that for every 20 degrees above 175F, the life of ATF is cut in half. To me that's pretty substantial given that most vehicles run at 200F or higher.
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Not all manufactures do lifetime fluid. Both of my cars require regular ATF changes. IMO I do regular fluid changes to reduce the chance of a rebuild. The minor cost of the fluid is nothing if I can add more life to the transmission or at least reduce my risk.
Originally Posted By: jrmason
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Other than conjecture, no one has or is able to answer the question of whether or not regular ATF changes will extend the life of the transmission. My two Toyota transmissions are over 200k miles on the factory fill. They both work fine. If they stop working fine, I'll do a drain and fill.
All the "experts" on here say to change the fluid. All the real experts that own shops tell me to let it be. Someone needs to be the control group for a scientific study, that will be me. I'm not changing it out. Well, other than the 700mL I already changed out to send a sample to Blackstone.
I am curious what experts your talking about? Are you referring to parts changer mechanics or actual transmission specialists? Ive talked to several trans builders over the years and their advice has always been the same...change the fluid.
How much clutch material do you suppose is in you filter in 200k miles? Once the filter becomes saturated and can no longer hold the wear materials it is now suspended in fluid which accelerates wear even faster. Heat is a killer of ATF. At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes and destroys the fluid's friction characteristics. Varnish begins to form on internal parts which interferes with the operation of the transmission. I've been told by more than one trans builder that for every 20 degrees above 175F, the life of ATF is cut in half. To me that's pretty substantial given that most vehicles run at 200F or higher.
There were two experts. One owns his own general repair shop and has been in business 10+ years. The other guy owns a transmission shop and has been in business for 42 years.
I might pour a bottle of LubeGard in and hope to get another 100k miles out of it.
I've read that before, that heat is what kills the fluid and the transmission.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Other than conjecture, no one has or is able to answer the question of whether or not regular ATF changes will extend the life of the transmission. My two Toyota transmissions are over 200k miles on the factory fill. They both work fine. If they stop working fine, I'll do a drain and fill.
All the "experts" on here say to change the fluid. All the real experts that own shops tell me to let it be. Someone needs to be the control group for a scientific study, that will be me. I'm not changing it out. Well, other than the 700mL I already changed out to send a sample to Blackstone.
I am curious what experts your talking about? Are you referring to parts changer mechanics or actual transmission specialists? Ive talked to several trans builders over the years and their advice has always been the same...change the fluid.
How much clutch material do you suppose is in you filter in 200k miles? Once the filter becomes saturated and can no longer hold the wear materials it is now suspended in fluid which accelerates wear even faster. Heat is a killer of ATF. At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes and destroys the fluid's friction characteristics. Varnish begins to form on internal parts which interferes with the operation of the transmission. I've been told by more than one trans builder that for every 20 degrees above 175F, the life of ATF is cut in half. To me that's pretty substantial given that most vehicles run at 200F or higher.
There were two experts. One owns his own general repair shop and has been in business 10+ years. The other guy owns a transmission shop and has been in business for 42 years.
I might pour a bottle of LubeGard in and hope to get another 100k miles out of it.
I've read that before, that heat is what kills the fluid and the transmission.
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Just because your two Toyota transmissions have made it as long as they have without a fluid change doesn't mean everybody else's Toyota transmissions will, nor does it mean another make would either. You are making a generalization that is unsupported by many manufacturers that recommend a regular fluid change.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Just because your two Toyota transmissions have made it as long as they have without a fluid change doesn't mean everybody else's Toyota transmissions will, nor does it mean another make would either. You are making a generalization that is unsupported by many manufacturers that recommend a regular fluid change.
I didn't make any generalizations and I never said anyone else's transmission would last as long as mine with the factory fill or recommend that people not change their fluid. I've just stated facts about my vehicles and what people have told me. You are reading things into what I've posted that are not there. I'm only talking about my two vehicles and my experiences with them. And the manufacturer of my vehicles doesn't recommend a regular fluid change for ATF.
I work in the science field and we have experimental groups and control groups. As an experiment, take N identical vehicles, operate half on the original ATF and operate half with regular changes. Drive them all to 300k miles and see if anything statistically significant happens.
Just because your two Toyota transmissions have made it as long as they have without a fluid change doesn't mean everybody else's Toyota transmissions will, nor does it mean another make would either. You are making a generalization that is unsupported by many manufacturers that recommend a regular fluid change.
I didn't make any generalizations and I never said anyone else's transmission would last as long as mine with the factory fill or recommend that people not change their fluid. I've just stated facts about my vehicles and what people have told me. You are reading things into what I've posted that are not there. I'm only talking about my two vehicles and my experiences with them. And the manufacturer of my vehicles doesn't recommend a regular fluid change for ATF.
I work in the science field and we have experimental groups and control groups. As an experiment, take N identical vehicles, operate half on the original ATF and operate half with regular changes. Drive them all to 300k miles and see if anything statistically significant happens.
Some manufactures make it very difficult to change lifetime transmission fluid, BMW is one of them.
The 4HP22 4 speed automatic in my various 528es was a very rugged cable shifted (no brain) I had an 86 with a 2.93 axle that delivered low 30s mpg all went to the crusher at over 250K miles with only a change or two in over 250k on average. The same trans with a brain was nowhere near as long lived. I would base line them with a 30$ pan gasket and filter job pus 4 qts of Dex III. I did a Pan drop and filter at 190K on my first 528e. I may have done another D and F before I retired the car with 350k miles. Mostly to see how things were before I set off on a 2k road trip. I have yet to be overly concerned with my 09 Camry with 85k on it. I don't think it has a dip stick.
Most "lifetime fills" have very small dipsticks only accessible from underneath, and some have fill plugs. They all have something to be able to gauge the fluid fill with in the event a tech has to drop the pan. They are generally very temperature dependent on the fill level. Our Mercury has a 10 degree threshold for filling (165-175*F)
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