Auto-RX...time, mileage or both

[loudist]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Allan:
How about a simple modicum of common sense??

Well ...let's offer the A-Rx in a STATIONARY INSTALLATION


What would you say to that...how many miles would you scientifically prove that it had travelled? Suppose it's a small island shuttle that idles for 6 hours a day ..yet has the oil changed due to time before 500 miles is on the odometer?

So you can't do an Auto-Rx on a stationary engine since hours of operation have no bearing on its use?? Oil flow has nothing to do with it ..dwell time ..cycles through the engine?


How does an engine "know" miles?? How does Auto-Rx "know" miles? It works on a given dwell time in the engine while the engine is operating. This has been "covered" by using 1500 miles for just about all vehicles.

Even the shallow pool dwellers can reasonably assume that miles ..in one form or another equates to "hours of operation".

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Boy, there is so much wrong with this logic I don't know where to begin.
I'll address the pertinent variable flaw.
If I covered those 1500 miles at 80mph as opposed to 60 mph the difference in time is impressive, although the flow through the engine would be much closer to the same amount in regard to both speeds.
So it is time versus flow.
There are also heat cycles to consider and product contact time within the passages, oil galleys, seals, etc.
Most folks don't drive the miles all at once, and thus the original question.
The example of the island shuttle is time versus flow as well.
Don't forget your water wings.

 

[Gary Allan]

In a stationary powerplant/engine installation they typically run at ONE SPEED. Hence the use of an hour meter. This is the only way you can gauge usage.

Again ...how would you plot mileage on this hypothetical engine??

This wasn't an assertion of 3m/3k miles. It was "run time" and I assert a intercity bus would have pumped millions of gallons of oil while sitting still at temp or driving in lower gears that would compare to an interstate bus of much higher mileage.

This is a very simple concept. But go ahead and ask Ralph what he'd do for a stationary installation. He already has ..and suggests an "hour" figure. Now if you can integrate that into a non-stationary installation (which shouldn't be beyond most's ability to do) then you should be able to conclude that it's an "hours of operation" issue....which 1500 miles covers in totality with all modes of driving. A taxi will see many more cycles going very few miles. This also isn't too much of an issue since there is no liability to leaving it in longer than needed. Hence the taxi has no reason to change it out eary ..even though it's gone through the required cycles.

 

[Rick20]

I would guess that a good number of hours to run ARX in a stationary motor would be the last 1/3 of hours on a scheduled oil change. For example if the the normal change out of oil is 100 hours of service, then add arx at the 66 hour mark and spin on a new filter.

On another note ARX cleans more effectivly at highway speeds. Normally have higher oil pressure and maximum flow of oil. However, is still very effective in the short run time modes as well.

 

[loudist]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Allan:
In a stationary powerplant/engine installation they typically run at ONE SPEED. Hence the use of an hour meter. This is the only way you can gauge usage.

Again ...how would you plot mileage on this hypothetical engine??

This wasn't an assertion of 3m/3k miles. It was "run time" and I assert a intercity bus would have pumped millions of gallons of oil while sitting still at temp or driving in lower gears that would compare to an interstate bus of much higher mileage.

This is a very simple concept. But go ahead and ask Ralph what he'd do for a stationary installation. He already has ..and suggests an "hour" figure. Now if you can integrate that into a non-stationary installation (which shouldn't be beyond most's ability to do) then you should be able to conclude that it's an "hours of operation" issue....which 1500 miles covers in totality with all modes of driving. A taxi will see many more cycles going very few miles. This also isn't too much of an issue since there is no liability to leaving it in longer than needed. Hence the taxi has no reason to change it out eary ..even though it's gone through the required cycles.

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This relates to the real world automobile use of Arx how exactly?

BTW the rpms of an idleing of a taxi or bus has less oil pressure than an engine turning 2500 rpm at cruise with load.
I would imagine the velocity of flow is yet another variable to the efficientcy of the product.
Therefore a car at idle for 30 hours isn't going to clean as well as a car doing highway miles for 30 hours.
The top end is going to be a lot cleaner on the higher rpm engine to boot.
I understand that it is all 'rule of thumb' we are discussing here, but the main question of time versus flow has been answered.
There are too many variables to definitively say x number of hours per treatment in an automobile.
One may make that number high (hours or miles) just to cover worse case scenarios.
Better to leave it in too long than not long enough.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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Therefore a car at idle for 30 hours isn't going to clean as well as a car doing highway miles for 30 hours.

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Naturally ..but that same taxi that idles much ..also runs many highway like rpms going very short distances. So 1 mile for a taxi may mimic several for a highway driver. 2500 rpm for xx minutes is 2500 rpm, right? All that high flow, top end, this and that covered, right??

..any more??

 

[loudist]

Yea, try answering the actual question I asked.

I'll repost it here for your convenience

"This relates to the real world automobile use of Arx how exactly?"

BTW your idleing taxi scenario has flaws up the ying yang like blowby oil contamination, sludge build up, carbon buildup, heat soak, low oil pressure, all compromising the product effectiveness, as well as using up the product in an inefficient manner.

You might want to talk to a fleet mechanic for cop cars or taxis sometime... long periods of idleing are pretty stressful on motors in more ways than just oil.

 

[Gary Allan]

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long periods of idleing are pretty stressful on motors in more ways than just oil.

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Most studies I have seen don't show a whole lot of "stress" on the oil. The oil temp isn't excessive ..and unless there's a fuel delivery problem where fuel dilution is caused mechanically ..then the idling engine sees no enriched warmup periods that the typical engine does. Even our esteemed Dr. Haas has pointed to studies by the equally esteemed Schnieder that show that the most wear occurs in the first 20 minutes of operation. This event is virtually eliminated in the taxi situation. Now cooling systems may take a beating ..but your oil is most stressed under high accelleration or at highway speeds as far as temp. Idling ..the stuff doesn't break a sweat ..even if the heads are about to blow a gasket. When you don't have much stress on the engine (high rates of thermal input at the pistons ..or high forces on the bearings) the oil could care less.

The infamous Consumer Reports oil study pretty much slams that opinion without much dispute.

We could just agree to disagree ..but if you must..

 

[loudist]

"This relates to the real world automobile use of Arx how exactly?"

and

"You might want to talk to a fleet mechanic for cop cars or taxis sometime..."

 

[Gary Allan]

Okay ..(btw-some may want to see how this thread progressed from the start ..note the evolution)..

..

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to treat 1 hr of idling as 30 miles for the change interval.

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I totally agree.

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t doesn't sound severe, but extended idling is often a reason for using a 'severe service' change interval.

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Which is probably because...

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1 hr of idling as 30 miles for the change interval.

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quote:

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This relates to the real world automobile use of Arx how exactly

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Did I ever say that it did?? The question was posed "time or mileage" ...if you read my first post ...I said "mileage" ..and that I imagine that there had to be a time/dwell/thermal/cycle component that is an equivalent.

You then proceeded to turn this into a pi$$ing contest. At a certain point ..realizing your nature ..I merely kept posting conjecture and watched you twitch as I kept pushing your buttons ..you came through every time. I didn't care if I said gravity was a lie and the earth sucked

..but seeing as you like never ending stories ..what would you do if you had a farm tractor ..or let's say a 86 FS Bronco that stayed on your property ..let's say in that little patch of land you have in the mountains. You use to to develop the land ..pull stumps ..blaze trails. You're in 4LOW most of the time ..you burn a tank of fuel (35 gallons) every two weeks ..yet only clock 15 miles a week.

Would you be foolish enough to keep the same oil in the crankcase for about two years under that service so that you could fullfill the obligation of going 1500 miles with Auto-Rx?

I mean ..you can't alter the directions to suit the situation, right??

 

[1sttruck]

As i recall in one 'police beat' article on oil the schedules needed to treat 1 hr of idling as 30 miles for the change interval. It doesn't sound severe, but extended idling is often a reason for using a 'severe service' change interval.

 

[loudist]

"You might want to talk to a fleet mechanic for cop cars or taxis sometime..."

 

[1sttruck]

Another way to estimate mileage is to use time instead :^)

Assume some average miles per hour from the 1500 mile recommendation, say 45 miles per hour, which is 33.3 hours. The Dodge trucks have an hour meter on the engine, but I don't know about others.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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"You might want to talk to a fleet mechanic for cop cars or taxis sometime..."

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Why, do they know how many hours equals 1500 miles??

 

[Bio-T]

The original topic starter got his answer from Auto-Rx and is happy. We can close this one now as we are getting sideways.