the fake dual exhausts -as mentioned before-everyone's got em--the ones that bother me the most are on Pilots- dual exhausts all right, but it looks like dual 1 1/2 inchers-thought we were trying to save weight?
Auto industry complaints. Vent yours
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In movies and commercials when they are driving automatics but using the sounds of manuals. -or sometimes they make a Honda civic sound like a Ferrari.
In 50 years F.I.A.T. will still mean "Fix it again Tony."
My biggest gripe has to do with car mfg's not allowing customers to get the options they want without adding thousands of dollars of items they don't want. I also hate the way every car mfg is going to bucket seats and a floor shifter - period. No bench and colum shifter avaiilable at all. This god awful fad is even working it's way into SUV's and trucks now.
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Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
My biggest gripe has to do with car mfg's not allowing customers to get the options they want without adding thousands of dollars of items they don't want.
If they did not build cars in popular option combos, production costs would skyrocket and dealers would not order cars with the appropriate option combos.
My biggest gripe has to do with car mfg's not allowing customers to get the options they want without adding thousands of dollars of items they don't want.
If they did not build cars in popular option combos, production costs would skyrocket and dealers would not order cars with the appropriate option combos.
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
My biggest gripes, industry wide:
1. Engines that are far more efficient than previous generations, yet still only get the same mileage owing to every new generation carrying more bloat that kills what would otherwise be FE gains.
Agreed. There's something wrong with the fact that my 87 Ciera with the 2.5 Tech 4 and throttle body injection and a 3 spd tranny got 23mpg in town and 32+ on the highway and that you'd be lucky to find similar numbers today on the average passenger car of the same size. And its not like it was the stripped down base model. It was a Brougham with power everything.
Yes I know, airbags and other safety measures have added weight to the cars, but at some point there is a diminishing return when you decrease the serious injury rate or increase survivability rates by only a small percentage at the cost of no forward progress in efficiency.
My biggest gripes, industry wide:
1. Engines that are far more efficient than previous generations, yet still only get the same mileage owing to every new generation carrying more bloat that kills what would otherwise be FE gains.
Agreed. There's something wrong with the fact that my 87 Ciera with the 2.5 Tech 4 and throttle body injection and a 3 spd tranny got 23mpg in town and 32+ on the highway and that you'd be lucky to find similar numbers today on the average passenger car of the same size. And its not like it was the stripped down base model. It was a Brougham with power everything.
Yes I know, airbags and other safety measures have added weight to the cars, but at some point there is a diminishing return when you decrease the serious injury rate or increase survivability rates by only a small percentage at the cost of no forward progress in efficiency.
Originally Posted By: buickman50401
Agreed. There's something wrong with the fact that my 87 Ciera with the 2.5 Tech 4 and throttle body injection and a 3 spd tranny got 23mpg in town and 32+ on the highway and that you'd be lucky to find similar numbers today on the average passenger car of the same size. And its not like it was the stripped down base model. It was a Brougham with power everything.
Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. My 2011 model mid-size sedan is rated for the same mileage as you got (though I get better), and has the exact same displacement. The refinement of the engine is far FAR better than the old Iron Duke. The tailpipe emissions are much lower. The vehicle itself is likely much safer, with multiple numbers of multi-stage airbags and anti-lock brakes.
The way I look at it, it's extremely commendable that the vehicle as a whole has progressed how it has, is bigger/safer/faster, is far more refined, and STILL returns same-or-better economy as those that came before it.
I guess it's a glass-half-empty or a glass-half-full thing.
My glass is always half-full (or more).
Agreed. There's something wrong with the fact that my 87 Ciera with the 2.5 Tech 4 and throttle body injection and a 3 spd tranny got 23mpg in town and 32+ on the highway and that you'd be lucky to find similar numbers today on the average passenger car of the same size. And its not like it was the stripped down base model. It was a Brougham with power everything.
Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. My 2011 model mid-size sedan is rated for the same mileage as you got (though I get better), and has the exact same displacement. The refinement of the engine is far FAR better than the old Iron Duke. The tailpipe emissions are much lower. The vehicle itself is likely much safer, with multiple numbers of multi-stage airbags and anti-lock brakes.
The way I look at it, it's extremely commendable that the vehicle as a whole has progressed how it has, is bigger/safer/faster, is far more refined, and STILL returns same-or-better economy as those that came before it.
I guess it's a glass-half-empty or a glass-half-full thing.
My glass is always half-full (or more).
Originally Posted By: steve20
the fake dual exhausts -as mentioned before-everyone's got em--the ones that bother me the most are on Pilots- dual exhausts all right, but it looks like dual 1 1/2 inchers-thought we were trying to save weight?
Dual muffler systems are often more efficient than single muffler systems because each muffler has to process only half the exhaust flow. The pipes are sized as they are to maintain any scavenging effect that was desired. The exhaust can remain extremely quiet while still delivering excellent performance.
the fake dual exhausts -as mentioned before-everyone's got em--the ones that bother me the most are on Pilots- dual exhausts all right, but it looks like dual 1 1/2 inchers-thought we were trying to save weight?
Dual muffler systems are often more efficient than single muffler systems because each muffler has to process only half the exhaust flow. The pipes are sized as they are to maintain any scavenging effect that was desired. The exhaust can remain extremely quiet while still delivering excellent performance.
Instrument of some cars is at center of the dash instead of on front of driver.
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Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Instrument of some cars is at center of the dash instead of on front of driver.
THIS
Instrument of some cars is at center of the dash instead of on front of driver.
THIS
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
My biggest gripe has to do with car mfg's not allowing customers to get the options they want without adding thousands of dollars of items they don't want.
If they did not build cars in popular option combos, production costs would skyrocket and dealers would not order cars with the appropriate option combos.
That is the reason.
Take for example, the full size GM SUV's. There are several different engine, body, chassis and other wire harnesses alone depending on option content. If every option were allowed to be a la cart, we'd have an unmanageable number of harnesses and also much more risk of mis-builds. Option packages streamline the build process and saves money in production.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
My biggest gripe has to do with car mfg's not allowing customers to get the options they want without adding thousands of dollars of items they don't want.
If they did not build cars in popular option combos, production costs would skyrocket and dealers would not order cars with the appropriate option combos.
That is the reason.
Take for example, the full size GM SUV's. There are several different engine, body, chassis and other wire harnesses alone depending on option content. If every option were allowed to be a la cart, we'd have an unmanageable number of harnesses and also much more risk of mis-builds. Option packages streamline the build process and saves money in production.
For some reason having the instruments in the center on a Jeep CJ did not bother me. But the first time I drove a Toyota Echo at night, I kept grabbing the end of the turn-signal stalk to turn the lights on. The area in front of me where instruments go was dark so my mind kept telling my left hand, "THE LIGHTS ARE OFF!. Same story with the Saturn Ion. Maybe the Jeep was different because I wouldn't have been able to tell which knob in the row of like 4 or so identical knobs was the headlight switch.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Maybe we should take the small truck off the "Chicken Tax". (I still don't know how Ford gets around the Chicken Tax with the Transit Connect)
From what I've read Ford ships the Transits with glass windows and some other "passenger" features in order to qualify it as a passenger van then "modifies" it once it's here to fit the customer's needs.
Whimsey
Maybe we should take the small truck off the "Chicken Tax". (I still don't know how Ford gets around the Chicken Tax with the Transit Connect)
From what I've read Ford ships the Transits with glass windows and some other "passenger" features in order to qualify it as a passenger van then "modifies" it once it's here to fit the customer's needs.
Whimsey
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
Spazdog said:
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. My 2011 model mid-size sedan is rated for the same mileage as you got (though I get better), and has the exact same displacement. The refinement of the engine is far FAR better than the old Iron Duke. The tailpipe emissions are much lower. The vehicle itself is likely much safer, with multiple numbers of multi-stage airbags and anti-lock brakes.
The way I look at it, it's extremely commendable that the vehicle as a whole has progressed how it has, is bigger/safer/faster, is far more refined, and STILL returns same-or-better economy as those that came before it.
I guess it's a glass-half-empty or a glass-half-full thing.
My glass is always half-full (or more).
Same displacement or not, consider the level of tech. Pre OBD-I. Very basic computer control (heck this was the same year Jeep was using that godawful Rennix system). Single injector TBI. Questionable EGR implementation and still 23/32mpg.
Yes the new vehicles are safer, but we've gone so safety crazy that we add 100s of lbs to gain just a few % points in improvement.
As far as the bigger/safter/faster/more refined... its the opposite direction we need to be heading as far as conservation/efficiency.
I'd settle for a carbon copy of my Cutlass Ciera with today's engine tech, airbags, and some side impact beams if it got high 20s city and 40 hwy.
As it stands its like the hardware/software dance in the computer world. Hardware gets faster but the software gets more bloated cancelling out some of the effect of faster hardware.
Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. My 2011 model mid-size sedan is rated for the same mileage as you got (though I get better), and has the exact same displacement. The refinement of the engine is far FAR better than the old Iron Duke. The tailpipe emissions are much lower. The vehicle itself is likely much safer, with multiple numbers of multi-stage airbags and anti-lock brakes.
The way I look at it, it's extremely commendable that the vehicle as a whole has progressed how it has, is bigger/safer/faster, is far more refined, and STILL returns same-or-better economy as those that came before it.
I guess it's a glass-half-empty or a glass-half-full thing.
My glass is always half-full (or more).
Same displacement or not, consider the level of tech. Pre OBD-I. Very basic computer control (heck this was the same year Jeep was using that godawful Rennix system). Single injector TBI. Questionable EGR implementation and still 23/32mpg.
Yes the new vehicles are safer, but we've gone so safety crazy that we add 100s of lbs to gain just a few % points in improvement.
As far as the bigger/safter/faster/more refined... its the opposite direction we need to be heading as far as conservation/efficiency.
I'd settle for a carbon copy of my Cutlass Ciera with today's engine tech, airbags, and some side impact beams if it got high 20s city and 40 hwy.
As it stands its like the hardware/software dance in the computer world. Hardware gets faster but the software gets more bloated cancelling out some of the effect of faster hardware.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: steve20
the fake dual exhausts -as mentioned before-everyone's got em--the ones that bother me the most are on Pilots- dual exhausts all right, but it looks like dual 1 1/2 inchers-thought we were trying to save weight?
Dual muffler systems are often more efficient than single muffler systems because each muffler has to process only half the exhaust flow. The pipes are sized as they are to maintain any scavenging effect that was desired. The exhaust can remain extremely quiet while still delivering excellent performance.
I'd buy that if they didn't have "big" mufflers for V8 engine applications and these "dual" systems didn't have a substantial portion of the exhaust where it was a single exhaust.
Now they might need to run that big muffler laterally like my Pontiac Vibe or a V6 Camaro. But it seems there are better solutions for cars like my wife's 2.5L Altima than adding a 2nd muffler and all the extra 4-6' of pipe.
If GM could get 180HP out of the Quad4 my Beretta GTZ had with a single muffler in 1990, I'm sure they and others could do that today without faux duals.
Originally Posted By: steve20
the fake dual exhausts -as mentioned before-everyone's got em--the ones that bother me the most are on Pilots- dual exhausts all right, but it looks like dual 1 1/2 inchers-thought we were trying to save weight?
Dual muffler systems are often more efficient than single muffler systems because each muffler has to process only half the exhaust flow. The pipes are sized as they are to maintain any scavenging effect that was desired. The exhaust can remain extremely quiet while still delivering excellent performance.
I'd buy that if they didn't have "big" mufflers for V8 engine applications and these "dual" systems didn't have a substantial portion of the exhaust where it was a single exhaust.
Now they might need to run that big muffler laterally like my Pontiac Vibe or a V6 Camaro. But it seems there are better solutions for cars like my wife's 2.5L Altima than adding a 2nd muffler and all the extra 4-6' of pipe.
If GM could get 180HP out of the Quad4 my Beretta GTZ had with a single muffler in 1990, I'm sure they and others could do that today without faux duals.
All the drive by wire, electric steering junk. I want a physical connection between my hands & feet, and the systems that control my vehicle. I was almost killed twice by the horrendous delay between mashing the gas pedal and the throttle actually opening on a car that I was working on. And no, that wasn't the issue it was in for.
Originally Posted By: buickman50401
As far as the bigger/safter/faster/more refined... its the opposite direction we need to be heading as far as conservation/efficiency.
You are definitely right about that...measures to increase NVH generally add weight and heft, which reduces efficiency. The balance, obviously, is trying to build a car that people want to own and keep it light so that efficiency is high.
As far as the bigger/safter/faster/more refined... its the opposite direction we need to be heading as far as conservation/efficiency.
You are definitely right about that...measures to increase NVH generally add weight and heft, which reduces efficiency. The balance, obviously, is trying to build a car that people want to own and keep it light so that efficiency is high.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
My biggest gripe has to do with car mfg's not allowing customers to get the options they want without adding thousands of dollars of items they don't want.
If they did not build cars in popular option combos, production costs would skyrocket and dealers would not order cars with the appropriate option combos.
That is the reason.
Take for example, the full size GM SUV's. There are several different engine, body, chassis and other wire harnesses alone depending on option content. If every option were allowed to be a la cart, we'd have an unmanageable number of harnesses and also much more risk of mis-builds. Option packages streamline the build process and saves money in production.
While simulatneously forcing options on customers that they do not want which also increases their profits.
I am not talking about unchecked ability to order any one option you want and on any model BUT by the same token there needs to be less things forced on the consumer and more options for them to select. Car mfg's can still offer up popular equipment packages and such to help dealers streamline the ordering process and keep vehicles on the lot that will move for sutomers who don't really care and willt ake whatever is there. A customer should be able to order a vehicle though and have some say in how it is optioned. I did it on my last Silverado and I was very disappointed I couldn't get a simple thing I wanted without having to go up a trim level and get things forced on me I did not want. I have tried recently as well with a new Ram and it is a waste of time to even try these days.
Let me give some examples...
1 - Sunroof's. This is something that is fast becoming a very popular option again. It is back in style. However, the car mfg's make adding it something that requires upper level trim levels and/or tons of options that are just ridiculous to force along with a sunroof. A sunroof is not dependant on other options to work so it should be a stand alone option. Any vehicle should be able to have a sunroof. Lots of young people for instance who can't afford luxury vehicles would like a sunroof but unless they upgrade to the upper trim levels they can't get one. It is STUPID! There isn't that much wiring extra to add it. The standard interior body harness could have a plug( behind the a-pillar or up near the overhead light somewhere similar )where the SR harness could be added as needed. Then just program whatever module powers it( BCM probably ). I have done some truck and car builds from different mfg's and adding a sunroof generally means middle to upper trim levels and it adds some really crazy stuff at times like leather interior, center consoles, entertainment systems, etc... = DUMB!
2 - My 2005 Silverado LS( actually the next to lowest trim level GM offered )came with the power fold away side mirrors w/ turn signals. I loved those mirrors as it was so nice to be able to press a button and have the mirrors fold in and out when going through a drive thru or pulling up to a mailbox. I special ordered a 2007( the new body style )Silverado. I ordered a 1LT. The 1st thing I told the dealer to add were those mirrors again. Unfortunately GM decided that they were only available starting with the 2LT trim level. That added about $3K to the truck AND it meant that I would be forced to have a center console vs the 40/20/40 bench I wanted. I wasn't adding all that extra $$$ to the price and adding options I did not want just for the mirrors. Those mirrors are very popular with the GM truck crowd and tons of people add them. Frankly, IMO, it is something every truck mfg should offer on any model short of work trucks with no power accessories at all. Adding those mirrors certainly should not have required a center console.
3 - Final example. I went to price out a new Dodge Ram a couple months back. I wanetd a standard 1500 Quad Cab, SLT trim level, 5.7L HEMI, and I wanted the dual exhaust option. Now, I also wanted 17" wheels and the 3.55 axle ratio not the 20's and 3.92's. To get the dual exhaust I had to step up a trim level in the truck and get things like 20" wheels. For a dual exhaust now folks. How stupid is that. Want to add a sunroof to a new Ram? You have to add the technology group. Fine it adds the wiring for those who will argue that. However, to do so also requires the premium seat option which is $1000+.
This is what I was talking about. Not just allowing any option on any vehicle. I do understand the mfg has to draw a line somewhere. However, they have gone too far in not allowing options that should be stand alone ones and also forcing thousands and thousands of dollars worth of unwanted options on us.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
My biggest gripe has to do with car mfg's not allowing customers to get the options they want without adding thousands of dollars of items they don't want.
If they did not build cars in popular option combos, production costs would skyrocket and dealers would not order cars with the appropriate option combos.
That is the reason.
Take for example, the full size GM SUV's. There are several different engine, body, chassis and other wire harnesses alone depending on option content. If every option were allowed to be a la cart, we'd have an unmanageable number of harnesses and also much more risk of mis-builds. Option packages streamline the build process and saves money in production.
While simulatneously forcing options on customers that they do not want which also increases their profits.
I am not talking about unchecked ability to order any one option you want and on any model BUT by the same token there needs to be less things forced on the consumer and more options for them to select. Car mfg's can still offer up popular equipment packages and such to help dealers streamline the ordering process and keep vehicles on the lot that will move for sutomers who don't really care and willt ake whatever is there. A customer should be able to order a vehicle though and have some say in how it is optioned. I did it on my last Silverado and I was very disappointed I couldn't get a simple thing I wanted without having to go up a trim level and get things forced on me I did not want. I have tried recently as well with a new Ram and it is a waste of time to even try these days.
Let me give some examples...
1 - Sunroof's. This is something that is fast becoming a very popular option again. It is back in style. However, the car mfg's make adding it something that requires upper level trim levels and/or tons of options that are just ridiculous to force along with a sunroof. A sunroof is not dependant on other options to work so it should be a stand alone option. Any vehicle should be able to have a sunroof. Lots of young people for instance who can't afford luxury vehicles would like a sunroof but unless they upgrade to the upper trim levels they can't get one. It is STUPID! There isn't that much wiring extra to add it. The standard interior body harness could have a plug( behind the a-pillar or up near the overhead light somewhere similar )where the SR harness could be added as needed. Then just program whatever module powers it( BCM probably ). I have done some truck and car builds from different mfg's and adding a sunroof generally means middle to upper trim levels and it adds some really crazy stuff at times like leather interior, center consoles, entertainment systems, etc... = DUMB!
2 - My 2005 Silverado LS( actually the next to lowest trim level GM offered )came with the power fold away side mirrors w/ turn signals. I loved those mirrors as it was so nice to be able to press a button and have the mirrors fold in and out when going through a drive thru or pulling up to a mailbox. I special ordered a 2007( the new body style )Silverado. I ordered a 1LT. The 1st thing I told the dealer to add were those mirrors again. Unfortunately GM decided that they were only available starting with the 2LT trim level. That added about $3K to the truck AND it meant that I would be forced to have a center console vs the 40/20/40 bench I wanted. I wasn't adding all that extra $$$ to the price and adding options I did not want just for the mirrors. Those mirrors are very popular with the GM truck crowd and tons of people add them. Frankly, IMO, it is something every truck mfg should offer on any model short of work trucks with no power accessories at all. Adding those mirrors certainly should not have required a center console.
3 - Final example. I went to price out a new Dodge Ram a couple months back. I wanetd a standard 1500 Quad Cab, SLT trim level, 5.7L HEMI, and I wanted the dual exhaust option. Now, I also wanted 17" wheels and the 3.55 axle ratio not the 20's and 3.92's. To get the dual exhaust I had to step up a trim level in the truck and get things like 20" wheels. For a dual exhaust now folks. How stupid is that. Want to add a sunroof to a new Ram? You have to add the technology group. Fine it adds the wiring for those who will argue that. However, to do so also requires the premium seat option which is $1000+.
This is what I was talking about. Not just allowing any option on any vehicle. I do understand the mfg has to draw a line somewhere. However, they have gone too far in not allowing options that should be stand alone ones and also forcing thousands and thousands of dollars worth of unwanted options on us.
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Originally Posted By: javacontour
I'd buy that if they didn't have "big" mufflers for V8 engine applications and these "dual" systems didn't have a substantial portion of the exhaust where it was a single exhaust.
As I understand, the muffler is one of the largest restrictions in the system. If you put two of them in the system, on separate branches, each one only has to process half the flow. The net restriction goes down, the sound volume stays low, and the flow rate stays high. Sure, they could do a transverse muffler (and a few vehicles have that), but that's not an option in many vehicles, especially the Honda Pilot that was brought up as an example.
I'd buy that if they didn't have "big" mufflers for V8 engine applications and these "dual" systems didn't have a substantial portion of the exhaust where it was a single exhaust.
As I understand, the muffler is one of the largest restrictions in the system. If you put two of them in the system, on separate branches, each one only has to process half the flow. The net restriction goes down, the sound volume stays low, and the flow rate stays high. Sure, they could do a transverse muffler (and a few vehicles have that), but that's not an option in many vehicles, especially the Honda Pilot that was brought up as an example.
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