Audi 2.0 TFSI - 502.00 Choices
- Thread starter dbrowne1
- Start date
- Status
Why are we talking about 0w20s and 300V? He needs VW 502/505 oil.
I really do not think that you can look at an MSDS and make a complete determination of an oil's base stock. It's listing certain hazardous parts of an oil, but it is not the be all and end all of the components of an oil.
I would try a Mid SAPS oil like Motul Specific 505/502. Lubrizol has a paper talking about lower SAPS oils causing less deposits. Go to their site and search for the paper "Lower SAPS Engine Oils - Essential components in maintaining vehicle emissions compliance"
-Dennis
I would try a Mid SAPS oil like Motul Specific 505/502. Lubrizol has a paper talking about lower SAPS oils causing less deposits. Go to their site and search for the paper "Lower SAPS Engine Oils - Essential components in maintaining vehicle emissions compliance"
-Dennis
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
I really do not think that you can look at an MSDS and make a complete determination of an oil's base stock. It's listing certain hazardous parts of an oil, but it is not the be all and end all of the components of an oil.
Check there - straight written (but I agree that in most cases such info is hidden): http://www.motul.fr/pl/en/products
I really do not think that you can look at an MSDS and make a complete determination of an oil's base stock. It's listing certain hazardous parts of an oil, but it is not the be all and end all of the components of an oil.
Check there - straight written (but I agree that in most cases such info is hidden): http://www.motul.fr/pl/en/products
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
2. One of my criteria is 502.00 approval for warranty purposes, so Amsoil and Redline are out. It needs to be on the official list, not just "formulated to meet."
Here's the secret - you really want a VW 504/507 oil, not VW 502. 504 is a superset of 502, and meets VW warranty requirements where 502 is specified.
The difference is that 504 is a low SAPS Euro IV spec oil that also has lower volatility - a search here for "Lubrizol low SAPS" should find a link to a paper they published in 2007 showing that the new Euro IV compliant low SAPS oils show 40% less intake valve deposits in direct injection engines. In Europe, VW/Audi spec 504 oils for their direct injection engines. Here in North America, they spec 502, but 504 meets and exceeds 502. Several members have posted correspondence here from VW and Audi confirming that 504 spec oils are warranty acceptable, and I had this exact conversation with my Audi dealer yesterday and they also confirmed it (I am buying Castrol SLX LongLife LL03 from the dealer for mid-interval oil changes at home in my Audi S5, and they will use the SLX LL03 oil for my specified dealer oil changes (for an extra charge above their standard Syntec 5W40 502 oil).
The best part - SLX LL03 is around $9 per litre from our VW or Audi dealers, whereas you'll pay more than that for GC, Mobil 1 0W40, or any other 504 spec oil!
2. One of my criteria is 502.00 approval for warranty purposes, so Amsoil and Redline are out. It needs to be on the official list, not just "formulated to meet."
Here's the secret - you really want a VW 504/507 oil, not VW 502. 504 is a superset of 502, and meets VW warranty requirements where 502 is specified.
The difference is that 504 is a low SAPS Euro IV spec oil that also has lower volatility - a search here for "Lubrizol low SAPS" should find a link to a paper they published in 2007 showing that the new Euro IV compliant low SAPS oils show 40% less intake valve deposits in direct injection engines. In Europe, VW/Audi spec 504 oils for their direct injection engines. Here in North America, they spec 502, but 504 meets and exceeds 502. Several members have posted correspondence here from VW and Audi confirming that 504 spec oils are warranty acceptable, and I had this exact conversation with my Audi dealer yesterday and they also confirmed it (I am buying Castrol SLX LongLife LL03 from the dealer for mid-interval oil changes at home in my Audi S5, and they will use the SLX LL03 oil for my specified dealer oil changes (for an extra charge above their standard Syntec 5W40 502 oil).
The best part - SLX LL03 is around $9 per litre from our VW or Audi dealers, whereas you'll pay more than that for GC, Mobil 1 0W40, or any other 504 spec oil!
Originally Posted By: GordonC
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
2. One of my criteria is 502.00 approval for warranty purposes, so Amsoil and Redline are out. It needs to be on the official list, not just "formulated to meet."
Here's the secret - you really want a VW 504/507 oil, not VW 502. 504 is a superset of 502, and meets VW warranty requirements where 502 is specified.
The difference is that 504 is a low SAPS Euro IV spec oil that also has lower volatility - a search here for "Lubrizol low SAPS" should find a link to a paper they published in 2007 showing that the new Euro IV compliant low SAPS oils show 40% less intake valve deposits in direct injection engines. In Europe, VW/Audi spec 504 oils for their direct injection engines. Here in North America, they spec 502, but 504 meets and exceeds 502. Several members have posted correspondence here from VW and Audi confirming that 504 spec oils are warranty acceptable, and I had this exact conversation with my Audi dealer yesterday and they also confirmed it (I am buying Castrol SLX LongLife LL03 from the dealer for mid-interval oil changes at home in my Audi S5, and they will use the SLX LL03 oil for my specified dealer oil changes (for an extra charge above their standard Syntec 5W40 502 oil).
The best part - SLX LL03 is around $9 per litre from our VW or Audi dealers, whereas you'll pay more than that for GC, Mobil 1 0W40, or any other 504 spec oil!
That's an interesting idea, and the 504/507 oils do seem to overlap the 502 requirements on paper. Mobil 1 ESP 5W30, Fuchs Titan GT1 Longlife III are also options.
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
2. One of my criteria is 502.00 approval for warranty purposes, so Amsoil and Redline are out. It needs to be on the official list, not just "formulated to meet."
Here's the secret - you really want a VW 504/507 oil, not VW 502. 504 is a superset of 502, and meets VW warranty requirements where 502 is specified.
The difference is that 504 is a low SAPS Euro IV spec oil that also has lower volatility - a search here for "Lubrizol low SAPS" should find a link to a paper they published in 2007 showing that the new Euro IV compliant low SAPS oils show 40% less intake valve deposits in direct injection engines. In Europe, VW/Audi spec 504 oils for their direct injection engines. Here in North America, they spec 502, but 504 meets and exceeds 502. Several members have posted correspondence here from VW and Audi confirming that 504 spec oils are warranty acceptable, and I had this exact conversation with my Audi dealer yesterday and they also confirmed it (I am buying Castrol SLX LongLife LL03 from the dealer for mid-interval oil changes at home in my Audi S5, and they will use the SLX LL03 oil for my specified dealer oil changes (for an extra charge above their standard Syntec 5W40 502 oil).
The best part - SLX LL03 is around $9 per litre from our VW or Audi dealers, whereas you'll pay more than that for GC, Mobil 1 0W40, or any other 504 spec oil!
That's an interesting idea, and the 504/507 oils do seem to overlap the 502 requirements on paper. Mobil 1 ESP 5W30, Fuchs Titan GT1 Longlife III are also options.
Originally Posted By: fredf
So then, as per the OP's original question.
If he wants a 502/504 compliant oil with low volatility and low SAPs in the 0w30 or 0W-40 weight, what is available in North America?
From what I can see:
Mobil 1 ESP
Castrol SLX Professional LL03
Fuchs Titan GT1 Longlife III
Motul Specific 504/507
Total Quartz Ineo
The last three are pretty much internet/mail order only.
All of these are 5w30 but have a HTHS over 3.5 as required by the specs.
So then, as per the OP's original question.
If he wants a 502/504 compliant oil with low volatility and low SAPs in the 0w30 or 0W-40 weight, what is available in North America?
From what I can see:
Mobil 1 ESP
Castrol SLX Professional LL03
Fuchs Titan GT1 Longlife III
Motul Specific 504/507
Total Quartz Ineo
The last three are pretty much internet/mail order only.
All of these are 5w30 but have a HTHS over 3.5 as required by the specs.
Last edited:
Regarding 504 vs 502: what about those who say that North American oil is different from the European (particularly regarding sulphur) and that for a NA car 502 is actually a better oil than 504?
I'm not sure it's simply a matter of 504 being a 'superset' of 502.
I'm not sure it's simply a matter of 504 being a 'superset' of 502.
Originally Posted By: fredf
Regarding 504 vs 502: what about those who say that North American oil is different from the European (particularly regarding sulphur) and that for a NA car 502 is actually a better oil than 504?
I'm not sure it's simply a matter of 504 being a 'superset' of 502.
The main concern seems to be that the TBN of these 504/507 oils starts much lower, and that NA fuel (with its ethanol and higher sulphur) could deplete to a dangerous level rather quickly.
I'm planning on running a 5K mile OCI regardless, which I think is safe in that regard, but you'd need to look at some analyses to see how those oils react to longer intervals.
Regarding 504 vs 502: what about those who say that North American oil is different from the European (particularly regarding sulphur) and that for a NA car 502 is actually a better oil than 504?
I'm not sure it's simply a matter of 504 being a 'superset' of 502.
The main concern seems to be that the TBN of these 504/507 oils starts much lower, and that NA fuel (with its ethanol and higher sulphur) could deplete to a dangerous level rather quickly.
I'm planning on running a 5K mile OCI regardless, which I think is safe in that regard, but you'd need to look at some analyses to see how those oils react to longer intervals.
Fair enough. But I would like to stick to the 10K OCI (2011 VW GTI). What then is my best bet?
I was going to go with GC 0w30 because I'm in Canada (cold winters) and thought the weight and GC quality would be perfect.
But I don't think it's low SAPS and I have no idea about its volatility (in terms of deposits with the direct injection).
So, what is a guy to do?
I was going to go with GC 0w30 because I'm in Canada (cold winters) and thought the weight and GC quality would be perfect.
But I don't think it's low SAPS and I have no idea about its volatility (in terms of deposits with the direct injection).
So, what is a guy to do?
Originally Posted By: fredf
Fair enough. But I would like to stick to the 10K OCI (2011 VW GTI). What then is my best bet?
I was going to go with GC 0w30 because I'm in Canada (cold winters) and thought the weight and GC quality would be perfect.
But I don't think it's low SAPS and I have no idea about its volatility (in terms of deposits with the direct injection).
So, what is a guy to do?
That was the original point in my starting this thread - to find the best 502.00 oil to prevent/control deposits.
I think both theory and the limited, anecdotal evidence out there shows that GC and Mobil 1 0W-40 are both good choices in the NA market for that criteria. If you have cold starts up there, GC may be ever so slightly better.
There are some ester-based Motul products (E-tech and X-lite) that might theoretically do better and that you can order, but they're much more expensive. Like, 13-17 USD a liter.
Fair enough. But I would like to stick to the 10K OCI (2011 VW GTI). What then is my best bet?
I was going to go with GC 0w30 because I'm in Canada (cold winters) and thought the weight and GC quality would be perfect.
But I don't think it's low SAPS and I have no idea about its volatility (in terms of deposits with the direct injection).
So, what is a guy to do?
That was the original point in my starting this thread - to find the best 502.00 oil to prevent/control deposits.
I think both theory and the limited, anecdotal evidence out there shows that GC and Mobil 1 0W-40 are both good choices in the NA market for that criteria. If you have cold starts up there, GC may be ever so slightly better.
There are some ester-based Motul products (E-tech and X-lite) that might theoretically do better and that you can order, but they're much more expensive. Like, 13-17 USD a liter.
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
If you have cold starts up there, GC may be ever so slightly better.
Actually, I believe that Mobil 1 0w-40 may be better than GC for very low temps, judging by its relatively high viscosity index.
If you have cold starts up there, GC may be ever so slightly better.
Actually, I believe that Mobil 1 0w-40 may be better than GC for very low temps, judging by its relatively high viscosity index.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
If you have cold starts up there, GC may be ever so slightly better.
Actually, I believe that Mobil 1 0w-40 may be better than GC for very low temps, judging by its relatively high viscosity index.
We're probably splitting hairs here (which is what BITOG is all about), but if you look at the pour points and 40C KV numbers, I think GC has an advantage. I don't recall and can't find the low temp pumpability numbers on both which would be a better indicator.
In general it would be hard for me to believe that 0W-40, even one with a VI of ~185, would flow better at sub zero temps than a generic 0W-30. There simply have to be some more viscous basestock components in that 0W-40 formula.
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
If you have cold starts up there, GC may be ever so slightly better.
Actually, I believe that Mobil 1 0w-40 may be better than GC for very low temps, judging by its relatively high viscosity index.
We're probably splitting hairs here (which is what BITOG is all about), but if you look at the pour points and 40C KV numbers, I think GC has an advantage. I don't recall and can't find the low temp pumpability numbers on both which would be a better indicator.
In general it would be hard for me to believe that 0W-40, even one with a VI of ~185, would flow better at sub zero temps than a generic 0W-30. There simply have to be some more viscous basestock components in that 0W-40 formula.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
There simply have to be some more viscous basestock components in that 0W-40 formula.
And there are. That's why Mobil 1 0w-40 has a much higher VI.
CATERHAM wrote a bunch on this subject. Search for his posts.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2148544/
If you plug in the 40C and 100C figures into a viscosity calculator, you'll see that he's right.
There simply have to be some more viscous basestock components in that 0W-40 formula.
And there are. That's why Mobil 1 0w-40 has a much higher VI.
CATERHAM wrote a bunch on this subject. Search for his posts.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2148544/
If you plug in the 40C and 100C figures into a viscosity calculator, you'll see that he's right.
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
If you have cold starts up there, GC may be ever so slightly better.
Actually, I believe that Mobil 1 0w-40 may be better than GC for very low temps, judging by its relatively high viscosity index.
We're probably splitting hairs here (which is what BITOG is all about), but if you look at the pour points and 40C KV numbers, I think GC has an advantage. I don't recall and can't find the low temp pumpability numbers on both which would be a better indicator.
In general it would be hard for me to believe that 0W-40, even one with a VI of ~185, would flow better at sub zero temps than a generic 0W-30. There simply have to be some more viscous basestock components in that 0W-40 formula.
GC is not a generic 0w30. It's a thick Euro 0w30 with high HTHS.
Let's find out how the two compare:
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1
If you have cold starts up there, GC may be ever so slightly better.
Actually, I believe that Mobil 1 0w-40 may be better than GC for very low temps, judging by its relatively high viscosity index.
We're probably splitting hairs here (which is what BITOG is all about), but if you look at the pour points and 40C KV numbers, I think GC has an advantage. I don't recall and can't find the low temp pumpability numbers on both which would be a better indicator.
In general it would be hard for me to believe that 0W-40, even one with a VI of ~185, would flow better at sub zero temps than a generic 0W-30. There simply have to be some more viscous basestock components in that 0W-40 formula.
GC is not a generic 0w30. It's a thick Euro 0w30 with high HTHS.
Let's find out how the two compare:
Originally Posted By: fredf
Fair enough. But I would like to stick to the 10K OCI (2011 VW GTI). What then is my best bet?
I was going to go with GC 0w30 because I'm in Canada (cold winters) and thought the weight and GC quality would be perfect.
But I don't think it's low SAPS and I have no idea about its volatility (in terms of deposits with the direct injection).
So, what is a guy to do?
I would not do 10K. Do 5K. Let VW pay for the 10K changes, you just do the 5K.
Fair enough. But I would like to stick to the 10K OCI (2011 VW GTI). What then is my best bet?
I was going to go with GC 0w30 because I'm in Canada (cold winters) and thought the weight and GC quality would be perfect.
But I don't think it's low SAPS and I have no idea about its volatility (in terms of deposits with the direct injection).
So, what is a guy to do?
I would not do 10K. Do 5K. Let VW pay for the 10K changes, you just do the 5K.
Originally Posted By: BobFout
GC is not a generic 0w30. It's a thick Euro 0w30 with high HTHS.
Let's find out how the two compare:
I've been seeing those graphs a lot around here lately, and I'm not sure how much I trust them at lower temps given that you're extrapolating based on just two data points much higher on the scale.
Even given that uncertainty, I'd still say that graph pretty well proves my point that we're splitting hairs.
GC is not a generic 0w30. It's a thick Euro 0w30 with high HTHS.
Let's find out how the two compare:
I've been seeing those graphs a lot around here lately, and I'm not sure how much I trust them at lower temps given that you're extrapolating based on just two data points much higher on the scale.
Even given that uncertainty, I'd still say that graph pretty well proves my point that we're splitting hairs.
Last edited:
Most of.the info you see in these graphs is irrelevant.
- Status
Similar threads
