I can definitively say Methuselah did not live for 900 years.
Aisin is owned by Toyota - it is a Toyota transmission.
0 for 2 in one post!
ATF WS
- Thread starter Pelican
- Start date
Aisin is owned by Toyota - it is a Toyota transmission.
0 for 2 in one post!
they are part of the toyota group, not toyota motor company. aisin is a global oem first and foremost, as is denso
Toyota motors owns 30% of Aisin…JC split hairs much? The point is they Toyota has considerable ownership in Aisin and Aisin supplies a lot Toyota-specific components including transmissions.
Last edited:
My brother in law bought a 2009 Rav4 2.5 last summer with 165K. It appeared to have the original ATF which was black and dirty looking. I did 2 D&R's within a week of getting it (about 100 miles apart) and a third D&R last week (7K from getting it). I used Idemitsu's version of WS which was on 'CLEARANCE' from AZ for $2 a quart. All I can say is that either Aisin makes a great A/T or WS is a good fluid because that A/T shifts great despite it's apparent lack of maintenance (it even shifted great before the fluid changes).
PS: The D&R I did last week is already dark....the red color was gone as soon as it was driven...I guess there's a lot of junk in there after 172K....I'll probably change it one more time in a few months since I have the fluid...
PS: The D&R I did last week is already dark....the red color was gone as soon as it was driven...I guess there's a lot of junk in there after 172K....I'll probably change it one more time in a few months since I have the fluid...
Because there is little to no mystification of engine oil specifications. The different grades and approvals and what they mean are spelled out quite clearly.
However, the same is not true for ATF with very few exceptions, like Dex VI or Mercon SP/LV. There's no license for WS or ZF oil, on purpose.
Everyone just says "buy our fluid, only our fluid will do" when in fact, the same transmissions can be found across a range of automakers and models.
I personally prefer amsoil over maxlife - the shift feel is slightly “tighter” with the amsoil to my rear end, in toyota use. And, as I’ve posted before, I won’t put maxlife in a Honda - bad experience there. But I also agree… there’s a lot of hate for WS but there are plenty of multi-hundred-k Toyota’s running around on brown-colored WS fluid.
methusaleh: 969 years. Died the same year as the flood. Name means something like, “he will die and then it will come.” or, “man of the dart,” depending on the source. Pretty freaky!
still, as a bitoger, I prefer to use synthetic in drive lines, and I wonder why toyota/aisin and others do not. With all of the tech they use to squeeze out ever 0.1 mpg, this seems like an easy win, unless their engineers in real labs have discovered something we haven’t.
or maybe it’s just Toyota’s philosophy. my 2014 Lexus GS gets worse mpg than my 2018F150 for everything except strict highway driving. That’s right, the pickup gets better mileage daily driving than the Camry-sized v6 sedan. Especially if the AC is on, which forces high idle and seems to elect one gear lower during cruise- biases towards comfort.
m
methusaleh: 969 years. Died the same year as the flood. Name means something like, “he will die and then it will come.” or, “man of the dart,” depending on the source. Pretty freaky!
still, as a bitoger, I prefer to use synthetic in drive lines, and I wonder why toyota/aisin and others do not. With all of the tech they use to squeeze out ever 0.1 mpg, this seems like an easy win, unless their engineers in real labs have discovered something we haven’t.
or maybe it’s just Toyota’s philosophy. my 2014 Lexus GS gets worse mpg than my 2018F150 for everything except strict highway driving. That’s right, the pickup gets better mileage daily driving than the Camry-sized v6 sedan. Especially if the AC is on, which forces high idle and seems to elect one gear lower during cruise- biases towards comfort.
m
Last edited:
Shel_B
Site Donor 2023
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2020
- Messages
- 5,167
JWS-3324 for Toyota WS fluid
I’ve always believed in changing transmission fluid.
The “sealed for life” comes from manufacturer warranty experience, in which the primary causes of failure in modern transmissions were identified as shop rag lint and RTV debris.
In other words - sloppy mechanics killed them.
This comes from my BIL, a power train engineer with GM, who works on transmissions.
So, the manufacturers removed the service interval, reckoning that old fluid without transmission-killing debris is better than fresh fluid with.
That said, the fine print in most owners manuals says that for police, taxi, or towing, there is a specified fluid change interval. E.G. the 2002 Volvo owners manual states that the fluid is “for life” and then, in the next paragraph, states that if the vehicle is used for police, or taxi service, the fluid should be changed at 52,500 miles (oil change is at 7,500, so this odd number is a multiple of those intervals).
That transmission, by the way, is an Aisin.
Further, even the sealed transmissions like Toyota, or Volvo, can be serviced relatively easily via a cooler line fluid exchange.
So change it. If it’s been neglected, change it, and change it again soon.
As long as the fluid meets the JWS spec for your Aisin, you’re fine. My Tundra is running AMSOIL, my Volvos have AMSOIL, Valvoline, and Mobil in them.
They all shift great.
The “sealed for life” comes from manufacturer warranty experience, in which the primary causes of failure in modern transmissions were identified as shop rag lint and RTV debris.
In other words - sloppy mechanics killed them.
This comes from my BIL, a power train engineer with GM, who works on transmissions.
So, the manufacturers removed the service interval, reckoning that old fluid without transmission-killing debris is better than fresh fluid with.
That said, the fine print in most owners manuals says that for police, taxi, or towing, there is a specified fluid change interval. E.G. the 2002 Volvo owners manual states that the fluid is “for life” and then, in the next paragraph, states that if the vehicle is used for police, or taxi service, the fluid should be changed at 52,500 miles (oil change is at 7,500, so this odd number is a multiple of those intervals).
That transmission, by the way, is an Aisin.
Further, even the sealed transmissions like Toyota, or Volvo, can be serviced relatively easily via a cooler line fluid exchange.
So change it. If it’s been neglected, change it, and change it again soon.
As long as the fluid meets the JWS spec for your Aisin, you’re fine. My Tundra is running AMSOIL, my Volvos have AMSOIL, Valvoline, and Mobil in them.
They all shift great.
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2020
- Messages
- 2,408
You say as long as it meets spec, use it. But does Amsoil meet spec? I’m guessing not, since it is lack the WS approval. I’m not saying that it wont work and provide same or better protection
It may not have WS approval from Toyota, but…
“Use AMSOIL Signature Series Fuel-Efficient Synthetic ATF in transmissions and other applications that require any of the following specifications:
Aisin-Warner AW-1; BMW 83 22 0 142 516, 83 22 2 152 426; Chrysler MOPAR* 68157995AA, SP-IV, 68218925AB; DSIH 6p805; Ford MERCON* LV, SP, ULV; GM DEXRON* HP, DEXRON* VI, ULV; Honda/Acura DW-1*, Type 3.0; Hyundai/Kia SP-IV, SPH-IV, SP-IV- RR, NWS-9638, SP4-M; JASO 1A-LV; JWS 3324; Mazda ATF FZ; Mercedes Benz 236.12, 236.14, 236.15, 236.41; Mitsubishi SP-IV, ATF J3, ATF-PA, ATF-MA1; Nissan Matic-S, Matic- W; Saab 93 165 147; Shell M-1375.4, M-1375.5, M-1375.6, M-L 12108; Toyota WS; Volvo 31256774; VW/Audi G 055 005, G 055 162, G 060 162; ZF S671 090 255.”
…which is good enough for me.
The Aisin AW-55 in my Volvos is known for being weak and failure prone in the 2001-2002 models (yeah, I know, I’ve got three).
And yet, using various fluids that are “recommended for use in” transmissions requiring T-IV, or JWS-3309, vs. actual Toyota approval, hasn’t really led to problems. All three cars have their original transmission. One of the cars has 268,000 miles on the original transmission. All three shift great.
“Use AMSOIL Signature Series Fuel-Efficient Synthetic ATF in transmissions and other applications that require any of the following specifications:
Aisin-Warner AW-1; BMW 83 22 0 142 516, 83 22 2 152 426; Chrysler MOPAR* 68157995AA, SP-IV, 68218925AB; DSIH 6p805; Ford MERCON* LV, SP, ULV; GM DEXRON* HP, DEXRON* VI, ULV; Honda/Acura DW-1*, Type 3.0; Hyundai/Kia SP-IV, SPH-IV, SP-IV- RR, NWS-9638, SP4-M; JASO 1A-LV; JWS 3324; Mazda ATF FZ; Mercedes Benz 236.12, 236.14, 236.15, 236.41; Mitsubishi SP-IV, ATF J3, ATF-PA, ATF-MA1; Nissan Matic-S, Matic- W; Saab 93 165 147; Shell M-1375.4, M-1375.5, M-1375.6, M-L 12108; Toyota WS; Volvo 31256774; VW/Audi G 055 005, G 055 162, G 060 162; ZF S671 090 255.”
…which is good enough for me.
The Aisin AW-55 in my Volvos is known for being weak and failure prone in the 2001-2002 models (yeah, I know, I’ve got three).
And yet, using various fluids that are “recommended for use in” transmissions requiring T-IV, or JWS-3309, vs. actual Toyota approval, hasn’t really led to problems. All three cars have their original transmission. One of the cars has 268,000 miles on the original transmission. All three shift great.
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2020
- Messages
- 2,408
I’ve watched this video and I don’t get it. They’re recommended for use in, they never claimed to be approved
Correct, Maxlife no longer carries any manufacturer approval ratings, only "recommended" for a large swath of transmissions (but not for ATF +4 vehicles).
It would be literally impossible to make a ATF that covers a large segment of the market (like Maxlife) and get the approval of all the manufactures. First of all it would be very expensive as it would involve paying everybody's licensing fee's and it would also mean meeting a bunch of different specs with one fluid. Even if the specs where very close to each other there would still be minor even cosmetic differences that would make it impossible. For instance most ATF is dyed red, but Mazda and Mercedes both have a ATF that is dyed blue so you can't have a Maxlife that meets both of those requirements. Toyota WS is nothing special and there's many people (including on this board) that feel that Maxlife is the superior ATF.
Not that magic, I managed 200k miles on a Ford transmission with Castrol ATF (from Walmart), doing 30k miles D&F.
Until was totaled by my teen kid, it was still shifting great. Fluid coming out was just slightly darker than the fresh one, neve got the violet-black color that WS does in my RAV4.
For my RAV4 I have switched to Aisin WS fluid, it's synthetic (from rockauto), hopefully won't oxidize the same.
Sometime after your manufacturer's maintenance schedule stops. My RAV4 stops at 120,000 miles. Like yours does too. Also, under severe service, Toyota does give a 60,000 mile service interval on transmission on my vehicle. Likely the same for yours.
I am still counting on the Methuselah lifetime number...
In the meantime, I will service all the automatic transmissions I own.
Just in case the Methuselah thing doesn't work out...
All good.