Ok, so it has been about a year since I made my repairs. I am responding for those who have unfortunately made the same mistake I did and want a follow up. I replaced the ABS unit, master cylinder, and calipers from a junkyard. I bought new flexible brake lines between the master / ABS unit and calipers. I bought a really nice vacuume pump to flush the metal lines. I flushed them with brake fluid, then brake cleaner, then more brake fluid. I replaced the pads all the way around. The hard part was bleeding the lines. If you don't have a fancy scanner that can activate the abs you will need to take it to a dealer to bleed the lines. I used my buddy's scanner, but the pedal was still soft until I took it out on a rainy day and slammed on the brakes tob activate the abs. After that my pedal is solid and one year without any symptoms of the brakes locking up. It worked and cost me just under $1,000. The most expensive mistake I have ever made, but I didn't have to junk the car!!!! Hope this helps someone else!!!
atf in brake resivor
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Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Wow, great info. Wouldn't think that rubber parts, etc would need to be replaced, especially if everything gets flushed.
Can anyone shed insight on this? Does glycol + petroleum turn into a gelatinous substance or something that can't be flushed out? Or, is it really just best practice since you really can't be sure enough in a closed system like brakes? Not saying that it is wrong, just can't see how the rubber parts would be ruined. What gives? Is it a special type?
Go to Napa and buy a kit for a wheel cylinder then put some oil on the seals and watch how huge they get!
Wow, great info. Wouldn't think that rubber parts, etc would need to be replaced, especially if everything gets flushed.
Can anyone shed insight on this? Does glycol + petroleum turn into a gelatinous substance or something that can't be flushed out? Or, is it really just best practice since you really can't be sure enough in a closed system like brakes? Not saying that it is wrong, just can't see how the rubber parts would be ruined. What gives? Is it a special type?
Go to Napa and buy a kit for a wheel cylinder then put some oil on the seals and watch how huge they get!
The OP stated his son is having serious brake problems now. I doubt draining the MC and flushing the lines is going to help, he's beyond that. I think he's looking at some major repair work now. If he had just poured the ATF in and wasn't having any problems, MAYBE he'd get away with draining the MC and a flush. IMO it's too late for that.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
The OP stated his son is having serious brake problems now. I doubt draining the MC and flushing the lines is going to help, he's beyond that. I think he's looking at some major repair work now. If he had just poured the ATF in and wasn't having any problems, MAYBE he'd get away with draining the MC and a flush. IMO it's too late for that.
Read the one year update two posts above yours. It was too late, and major repair work (~$1,000) was required. An expensive mistake, but at least everything is safely working now.
The OP stated his son is having serious brake problems now. I doubt draining the MC and flushing the lines is going to help, he's beyond that. I think he's looking at some major repair work now. If he had just poured the ATF in and wasn't having any problems, MAYBE he'd get away with draining the MC and a flush. IMO it's too late for that.
Read the one year update two posts above yours. It was too late, and major repair work (~$1,000) was required. An expensive mistake, but at least everything is safely working now.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Oil based products cause all of the seals to swell up and be destroyed.
I don't get this. What kind of funny rubber do they use? I've never seen the hoses swell from motor oil or fuel on the outside. Are those hoses dual-materials such that the inner rubber is not compatible and the outer layer is protective?
EPDM ethylene propylene diene monomer rubber. "EPDM exhibits satisfactory compatibility with fireproof hydraulic fluids, ketones, hot and cold water, and alkalis, and unsatisfactory compatibility with most oils, gasoline, kerosene, aromatic and aliphatic hydrocarbons, halogenated solvents, and concentrated acids."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPDM_rubber
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Oil based products cause all of the seals to swell up and be destroyed.
I don't get this. What kind of funny rubber do they use? I've never seen the hoses swell from motor oil or fuel on the outside. Are those hoses dual-materials such that the inner rubber is not compatible and the outer layer is protective?
EPDM ethylene propylene diene monomer rubber. "EPDM exhibits satisfactory compatibility with fireproof hydraulic fluids, ketones, hot and cold water, and alkalis, and unsatisfactory compatibility with most oils, gasoline, kerosene, aromatic and aliphatic hydrocarbons, halogenated solvents, and concentrated acids."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPDM_rubber
'96 or '97 Continental. Customer accidentally put power steering fluid into the brake reservoir after seeing an amber ABS light (due to a bad sensor that would have been covered under warranty). Total bill rang in about $3500, insurance picked up $3000 of it.
I've experienced what this can do with hydraulic brakes on bikes. the wrong oil WILL cause the rubber to expand and become overly soft.
I've read the arguments here... back and forth... no it wont, yes it will.... skipped to the bottom.
the system needs to be flushed. rubber damage has begun, and may not be finished.
You could get new seals and o-rings for all the pistons (rebuild kit, maybe $20 per wheel?) and swap them out. it takes time but isn't too bad. Also keeps the oem iron. A mechanic will choose a reman caliper as it's quicker to do, but you'll pay more for parts.
AFA the master cylinder... IDK if those use many rubber parts beyond the pedal stud boot and the seals to the reservoir. You may be able to live with that one.
Hoses--- I don't know how badly they will be affected, honestly, but I would replace them. A hose pop is much worse than the failure mode for the o-rings.
what will happen is as the o-rings swell, pad return will be sluggish. the brakes will drag and stay hotter. Pedal feel will change at this point. Pedal return may not be as crisp. If the o-rings deteriorate, the pedal will begin sinking to the floor, possibly accompanied by fluid loss, depending on if it's a master cylinder or brake piston leak. 12 pumps to the floor and he's running dry.
it's a gamble. could be a usable car for a year after a full flush. could be an accident waiting to happen.
I'm sorry this happened.. it's either a good bit of work (full day for a diy) or a good bit of $.
Mike
I've read the arguments here... back and forth... no it wont, yes it will.... skipped to the bottom.
the system needs to be flushed. rubber damage has begun, and may not be finished.
You could get new seals and o-rings for all the pistons (rebuild kit, maybe $20 per wheel?) and swap them out. it takes time but isn't too bad. Also keeps the oem iron. A mechanic will choose a reman caliper as it's quicker to do, but you'll pay more for parts.
AFA the master cylinder... IDK if those use many rubber parts beyond the pedal stud boot and the seals to the reservoir. You may be able to live with that one.
Hoses--- I don't know how badly they will be affected, honestly, but I would replace them. A hose pop is much worse than the failure mode for the o-rings.
what will happen is as the o-rings swell, pad return will be sluggish. the brakes will drag and stay hotter. Pedal feel will change at this point. Pedal return may not be as crisp. If the o-rings deteriorate, the pedal will begin sinking to the floor, possibly accompanied by fluid loss, depending on if it's a master cylinder or brake piston leak. 12 pumps to the floor and he's running dry.
it's a gamble. could be a usable car for a year after a full flush. could be an accident waiting to happen.
I'm sorry this happened.. it's either a good bit of work (full day for a diy) or a good bit of $.
Mike
Ouch. Sorry to hear of this.
ATF will ruin brake hoses, seals, etc. Virtually all the rubber parts will die.
I found this out the hard way when my then-girlfriend put atf into the master cylinder of my Datsun 240z.
ATF will ruin brake hoses, seals, etc. Virtually all the rubber parts will die.
I found this out the hard way when my then-girlfriend put atf into the master cylinder of my Datsun 240z.
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