ATF: Amsoil Signature vs Toyota WS vs Idemitsu

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Again, I don't know if you're being intentionally obtuse because you clearly have an agenda but I'm not advocating for anyone to buy WS over anything else. All I'm saying is you can't categorically declare WS "crap" because it came out dark and with an odor. That's all. That's it. It's America brother, buy whatever you want, but know the limitations of looking at and smelling ATF and making wild speculative accusations about the quality of an ATF that is almost universally used in vehicles that are well known for their longevity.
My agenda is my opinion, everyone has one and think WS is crap it has be talked over here that it is a semi-synthetic and many people think it is crap too and want to change out to another ATF. Why would any Manufacture these day chose a semi-synthetic for a ATF. Makes no sense to me I find it a bad choice and I saw it on my car I see it on this site and other Toyota sites were many others don't care for WS either for my exact reason. Some have pulled UOA and it was not that good, but some are good. If you have a Toyota truck with an proper ATF oil cooler you don't have the issues as bad as the Rav4 do burning up the semi-synthetic WS. I own a Toyota and I own a Hyundai. I love my Hyundai for the most part. It is a tuner car and gets thrash with hard use because of it. I will point out the flaws on it without hesitation. I will call out the manufacture on what I see are what I feel is wrong. No fan boy or protecting any car from me. My ATF was trashed at 21,000 miles if it did not smell like DEATH X10 and make you sick. I have had some bad ATF jobs when I had my shop , but not even close to the WS. SO when I see someone who wants a change I ALWAYS chime in when I see it, as they are a lot of times going back and forth if they should change and I am rooting for them to get rid of the crap WS. SO so many posts of people who change out and loved that they switch away from WS. There NOTHING special in WS not to change it out to a high quality ATF that exceeds WS questionable performance personality. This site is full of people wanting to drop WS. I am one of them and am a cheerleader to them to make the change as other ATF I think atre better, as many many others do too.

Why did I not see this black oil and smell in my 100,000 Mazda 3 I just dumped? Why did not see it in my customers Audi's and VW's?
 

ekolpack

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Obviously some strong opinions both ways about WS. Most of what I'm seeing for positives about WS and Idemitsu is people saying stuff like "it works great" or "200k miles and still going strong" or "no issues" or things to that effect. For Amsoil on the other hand, lots of people are reporting actual improvements, like "started shifting poorly at 160k, switched to Amsoil and all issues dissapeared" or "60k miles, switched to Amsoil and shifting is way smoother than before" or "since switching to Amsoil, ATF looks like new at every oil change" or things to that effect.

Of course Amsoil can't prove it's long term reliability in Toyotas with tons of examples of people running it exclusively in their Toyotas up to 500k miles like WS will, because Toyota strongly discourages/demonizes anything but their own ATF in their vehicles, but I think it's safe to say that if Amsoil is causing smoother shifts and the fluid is coming out perfectly clean (maybe even cleaner that WS), it's extremely unlikely that it is actually causing problems that will jump out at some point down the road.

If it were causing metal issues, there'd be metal shavings or burnt oil in the pan. If there were gasket/seal issues, there'd be leaks or plastic/rubber particulate present in drained fluid. Beyond this, what sort of unknown lurking issues might waiting to manifest with longterm Amsoil usage? If operation is smooth (maybe smoother than WS), fluid is clean, and no leaks present, it's tough to make an argument that there might be some damage actually occurring that's hidden until much later. Or I am wrong? Perhaps sludge deposits building up or something? Magical Amsoil damage fairies that leave no footprints? I just don't know enough about trannys, but again, it seems very, very unlikely that hidden damage is actually happening with smooth shifting, low temps, clean/clear used oil and no leaks.
 

Astro14

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My agenda is my opinion, everyone has one and think WS is crap it has be talked over here that it is a semi-synthetic and many people think it is crap too and want to change out to another ATF. Why would any Manufacture these day chose a semi-synthetic for a ATF. Makes no sense to me I find it a bad choice and I saw it on my car I see it on this site and other Toyota sites were many others don't care for WS either for my exact reason. Some have pulled UOA and it was not that good, but some are good. If you have a Toyota truck with an proper ATF oil cooler you don't have the issues as bad as the Rav4 do burning up the semi-synthetic WS. I own a Toyota and I own a Hyundai. I love my Hyundai for the most part. It is a tuner car and gets thrash with hard use because of it. I will point out the flaws on it without hesitation. I will call out the manufacture on what I see are what I feel is wrong. No fan boy or protecting any car from me. My ATF was trashed at 21,000 miles if it did not smell like DEATH X10 and make you sick. I have had some bad ATF jobs when I had my shop , but not even close to the WS. SO when I see someone who wants a change I ALWAYS chime in when I see it, as they are a lot of times going back and forth if they should change and I am rooting for them to get rid of the crap WS. SO so many posts of people who change out and loved that they switch away from WS. There NOTHING special in WS not to change it out to a high quality ATF that exceeds WS questionable performance personality. This site is full of people wanting to drop WS. I am one of them and am a cheerleader to them to make the change as other ATF I think atre better, as many many others do too.

Why did I not see this black oil and smell in my 100,000 Mazda 3 I just dumped? Why did not see it in my customers Audi's and VW's?
So, it’s crap because you think it’s crap, which you’ve based on your preconception that it’s crap, backed up by smell?

Your whole post is a self-reinforcing tautology.

It’s clear what you think, but it’s not clear what basis you have for the position, beyond smell.

How do you know it’s “trashed” beyond the apparent color and smell?
 
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Same. And most people do not change it until 60-100K, if at all.
speaking of WS, have you ever had issues with using Maxlife ATF as a replacement? I have used Maxlife ATF in two 6-speed Toyota AT without any issues so far, and it was only ~$4.50 per quart, why is Toyota WS better at ~$12 per quart? unless Maxlife ATF has caused issues in Toyota AT where WS is called for, I would like to know which applications to avoid using Maxlife ATF and use only Toyota WS.
 
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speaking of WS, have you ever had issues with using Maxlife ATF as a replacement? I have used Maxlife ATF in two 6-speed Toyota AT without any issues so far, and it was only ~$4.50 per quart, why is Toyota WS better at ~$12 per quart? unless Maxlife ATF has caused issues in Toyota AT where WS is called for, I would like to know which applications to avoid using Maxlife ATF and use only Toyota WS.
I have never used Maxlife in place of WS. I have seen it used in place of Honda ATF, but the results have been poor.

The Idemitsu product, for a while, was around $5/qt.
 

ekolpack

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Dec 22, 2021
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The oilclub.ru site had a post several years ago about the Idemitsu product. Someone ran some in-depth testing (beyond a typical UOA) and felt it was a very close identical to the Genuine WS.

I have used all 3 products in various U660 transmissions and have never observed any differences in performance.


I highly recommend one of these units if you own several vehicles with a dipstick-less transmission. It makes the process less painful:


edit: I found the link:

Great post, thanks for digging that up! By "all 3 products" you mean Yota WS, Idemitsu, and ???
 
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I just realized why there is so much passion floating around this thread now...because the title says Amsoil vs WS vs Idemitsu. That, and one person calling a fluid “crap” without reasonable explanation to (despite millions of happily filled Toyota transmissions cruising around with WS fluid, for millions of miles).

And let’s also realize that the OP uses Amsoil exclusively in all his other applications for his vehicle, and he was probably looking for more reassurance that the magical Santa Juice would suffice (and then some). And it most likely will. It’s a great company with great fluids. Ask Santa’s juice squeezer.

At the end of the day everyone goes home happy...Amsoil fanboys, IdnevermetU, and the poor WS slubs. Santa’s happy. The Easter Bunny is having fun in his hibernation hole with god knows who. St. Patty’s Day Leprechaun is drinking Amsoil by the bushels. The only people not happy are Toyota transmission repair techs, because they are sitting around wondering why they didn’t become plumbers. Merry Christmas! And keep changing that fluid every 50,000 miles.
 

ekolpack

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Dec 22, 2021
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I just realized why there is so much passion floating around this thread now...because the title says Amsoil vs WS vs Idemitsu. That, and one person calling a fluid “crap” without reasonable explanation to (despite millions of happily filled Toyota transmissions cruising around with WS fluid, for millions of miles).

And let’s also realize that the OP uses Amsoil exclusively in all his other applications for his vehicle, and he was probably looking for more reassurance that the magical Santa Juice would suffice (and then some). And it most likely will. It’s a great company with great fluids. Ask Santa’s juice squeezer.

At the end of the day everyone goes home happy...Amsoil fanboys, IdnevermetU, and the poor WS slubs. Santa’s happy. The Easter Bunny is having fun in his hibernation hole with god knows who. St. Patty’s Day Leprechaun is drinking Amsoil by the bushels. The only people not happy are Toyota transmission repair techs, because they are sitting around wondering why they didn’t become plumbers. Merry Christmas! And keep changing that fluid every 50,000 miles.

May Flat Earth Santa bless you with a pile of high-quality synthetic oily rags this Hannukah season and may the flame from a single crap WS conventional oily rag last for 8 days that it may guide you and Brandon out of The Darkness and into The Light!
 
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May Flat Earth Santa bless you with a pile of high-quality synthetic oily rags this Hannukah season and may the flame from a single crap WS conventional oily rag last for 8 days that it may guide you and Brandon out of The Darkness and into The Light!
That oily rag is a “synthetic blend“, and burns with a fantastic velocity. 🤣🤣
 
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My agenda is my opinion, everyone has one and think WS is crap it has be talked over here that it is a semi-synthetic and many people think it is crap too and want to change out to another ATF. Why would any Manufacture these day chose a semi-synthetic for a ATF. Makes no sense to me I find it a bad choice and I saw it on my car I see it on this site and other Toyota sites were many others don't care for WS either for my exact reason. Some have pulled UOA and it was not that good, but some are good. If you have a Toyota truck with an proper ATF oil cooler you don't have the issues as bad as the Rav4 do burning up the semi-synthetic WS. I own a Toyota and I own a Hyundai. I love my Hyundai for the most part. It is a tuner car and gets thrash with hard use because of it. I will point out the flaws on it without hesitation. I will call out the manufacture on what I see are what I feel is wrong. No fan boy or protecting any car from me. My ATF was trashed at 21,000 miles if it did not smell like DEATH X10 and make you sick. I have had some bad ATF jobs when I had my shop , but not even close to the WS. SO when I see someone who wants a change I ALWAYS chime in when I see it, as they are a lot of times going back and forth if they should change and I am rooting for them to get rid of the crap WS. SO so many posts of people who change out and loved that they switch away from WS. There NOTHING special in WS not to change it out to a high quality ATF that exceeds WS questionable performance personality. This site is full of people wanting to drop WS. I am one of them and am a cheerleader to them to make the change as other ATF I think atre better, as many many others do too.

Why did I not see this black oil and smell in my 100,000 Mazda 3 I just dumped? Why did not see it in my customers Audi's and VW's?
You have a right to state your opinion but you don't have any right to state your opinion without criticism. Your rationale is dubious at best and just plain unsupported by any meaningful objective data at worst. The WS is dark and you think it smells bad and SO WHAT? What does that REALLY mean? Does that mean its useful life is totally gone at 23k miles? Does it mean it can longer perform optimally? Does it mean there will be a reduction in longevity of the transmission? Does it mean replacing it with something else will make any meaningful difference? Who knows but color and smell ain't the definitive measure of useful life or any of those measures. Where are all the failures due to this crap ATF? This stuff has been around and has been used in traditional ATs since 2006 and has been used in the transmission of your RAV since 2012 - TEN YEARS! As a matter of perspective, could it be Toyota is mass-producing millions of transmissions in vehicles that range from small and light to very large and heavy over nearly 16 years using "crap" ATF that is completely destroyed by 23K miles? Well, I suppose it's possible, it is definitely a non-zero value, but it's not probable.

So now I'm left with your eyes/nose vs the mountain of evidence suggesting it works just fine. Please pardon me if I don't just jump on the WS is crap train just yet.
 
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You have a right to state your opinion but you don't have any right to state your opinion without criticism. Your rationale is dubious at best and just plain unsupported by any meaningful objective data at worst. The WS is dark and you think it smells bad and SO WHAT? What does that REALLY mean? Does that mean its useful life is totally gone at 23k miles? Does it mean it can longer perform optimally? Does it mean there will be a reduction in longevity of the transmission? Does it mean replacing it with something else will make any meaningful difference? Who knows but color and smell ain't the definitive measure of useful life or any of those measures. Where are all the failures due to this crap ATF? This stuff has been around and has been used in traditional ATs since 2006 and has been used in the transmission of your RAV since 2012 - TEN YEARS! As a matter of perspective, could it be Toyota is mass-producing millions of transmissions in vehicles that range from small and light to very large and heavy over nearly 16 years using "crap" ATF that is completely destroyed by 23K miles? Well, I suppose it's possible, it is definitely a non-zero value, but it's not probable.

So now I'm left with your eyes/nose vs the mountain of evidence suggesting it works just fine. Please pardon me if I don't just jump on the WS is crap train just yet.
I am open for criticism, why do you think I am right back here posting and not cowering in a corner. I guess I can't go through life if I don't have 100% scientific data points where I need an oil engineer to decide how to function with my oil decisions. I would think with how black this oil was and the God awful the oil smelled ( which I have heard is signs a oil is totally stress out and past it's point of usefulness. And I am not talking common bad smell I am talking 50 decomposing sheep in a large garage, I need a respirator kind of smell. I think I could guarantee 99 % of anyone on this site has never smelled something this bad and engulfing) And as I said before I know all about dirty oil is not necessarily bad oil IE any diesel oil 100 miles after a fresh oil change is pitch black. At some point in life you learn "Logic Dictates" I combine massively dirty, epic death smell, and a semi-synthetic on a short 21,000 to = crap. It does in my book. Especially when we do see a fair amount people question WS gravitas. That brings me to my latest change of my daughters 100,000 miles 2013 Mazda 3 trans dump, that smelled like a normal 100,000 ATF dump, and was blackish, but not the as bad as the Rav4. Why wasn't that as bad, I ask myself. Why were my other cars not as bad at higher miles, I ask myself. Nope, can use logic dictates in my life anymore, I could be wrong.

I use my experiences in my hobby Audi repair shop and other brands that went trough, plus all the tuner cars through the years. I have seen black oil on cars with 100,000 + or -. Not like this at 21,000 miles. I think we beat this dead horse enough. I think its crap, you and others don't.
 
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I am open for criticism, why do you think I am right back here posting and not cowering in a corner. I guess I can't go through life if I don't have 100% scientific data points where I need an oil engineer to decide how to function with my oil decisions. I would think with how black this oil was and the God awful the oil smelled ( which I have heard is signs a oil is totally stress out and past it's point of usefulness. And I am not talking common bad smell I am talking 50 decomposing sheep in a large garage, I need a respirator kind of smell. I think I could guarantee 99 % of anyone on this site has never smelled something this bad and engulfing) And as I said before I know all about dirty oil is not necessarily bad oil IE any diesel oil 100 miles after a fresh oil change is pitch black. At some point in life you learn "Logic Dictates" I combine massively dirty, epic death smell, and a semi-synthetic on a short 21,000 to = crap. It does in my book. Especially when we do see a fair amount people question WS gravitas. That brings me to my latest change of my daughters 100,000 miles 2013 Mazda 3 trans dump, that smelled like a normal 100,000 ATF dump, and was blackish, but not the as bad as the Rav4. Why wasn't that as bad, I ask myself. Why were my other cars not as bad at higher miles, I ask myself. Nope, can use logic dictates in my life anymore, I could be wrong.

I use my experiences in my hobby Audi repair shop and other brands that went trough, plus all the tuner cars through the years. I have seen black oil on cars with 100,000 + or -. Not like this at 21,000 miles. I think we beat this dead horse enough. I think its crap, you and others don't.
I'll tell you about what ATF I use for my vehicles. I use WS in my 2008 Toyota Sienna. It has over 375,000 miles and I have it changed every 50,000 miles. It is the original transmission and engine. I also have 4 Mercedes that I use Amsoil Transmission fluid in them. The 1983 240D has a manual tranny and now has 70,000 miles on the Amsoil and I'm going to change it every 100,000 miles. The 240D has over 327,000 miles and still shifts just great. My 1984 300SD has over 258,000 miles on it and over 30,000 miles on Amsoil ATF fluid and I'll change it out every 75,000 miles. Of course it runs and shifts just fine. My 1988 E300 gas car has over 280,000 miles on it and over 50,000 miles on the Amsoil ATF and when it shifts it is almost imperceptible!! Amsoil ATF at it's finest!! My 1995 E300d has over 173,000 miles and over 23,000 miles on the Amsoil ATF. And, as I'm sure you would imagine, it shifts very smoothly as well. I will change out the ATF every 75,000 miles on my 124's. WS didn't work out so well for you and you went with a great ATF. I also like the Amsoil ATF. The WS worked out very well for me. If it would not have done so, I would have went with the Amsoil ATF as well.
 
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I am open for criticism, why do you think I am right back here posting and not cowering in a corner. I guess I can't go through life if I don't have 100% scientific data points where I need an oil engineer to decide how to function with my oil decisions. I would think with how black this oil was and the God awful the oil smelled ( which I have heard is signs a oil is totally stress out and past it's point of usefulness. And I am not talking common bad smell I am talking 50 decomposing sheep in a large garage, I need a respirator kind of smell. I think I could guarantee 99 % of anyone on this site has never smelled something this bad and engulfing) And as I said before I know all about dirty oil is not necessarily bad oil IE any diesel oil 100 miles after a fresh oil change is pitch black. At some point in life you learn "Logic Dictates" I combine massively dirty, epic death smell, and a semi-synthetic on a short 21,000 to = crap. It does in my book. Especially when we do see a fair amount people question WS gravitas. That brings me to my latest change of my daughters 100,000 miles 2013 Mazda 3 trans dump, that smelled like a normal 100,000 ATF dump, and was blackish, but not the as bad as the Rav4. Why wasn't that as bad, I ask myself. Why were my other cars not as bad at higher miles, I ask myself. Nope, can use logic dictates in my life anymore, I could be wrong.

I use my experiences in my hobby Audi repair shop and other brands that went trough, plus all the tuner cars through the years. I have seen black oil on cars with 100,000 + or -. Not like this at 21,000 miles. I think we beat this dead horse enough. I think its crap, you and others don't.
Again, it has NOTHING to do with what's BEST or BETTER or WORSE or what the actual state of YOUR WS was or what YOU want to USE next and it ONLY has to do with your conclusion that based on your n=1 experience of color and smell ALLLLL WS IS CRAP. You have NOT provided sufficient objective evidence to support that position. That is ALL I'm saying. If you provided objective evidence that 30% of all transmissions are prematurely failing because the WS is burning or degrading and that the same transmissions do fine with some other ATF then I would agree with you that WS is substandard and insufficient for those applications - I would agree it's crap.

Maybe it's my science training or maybe just a general personality defect but I'm saying something very specific here - you have not provided evidence to support WS, in general, is crap.
 
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They're all fine products imo. Personally I feel that amsoil is a more rusbust oil than ws and capable of longer drains in comparable length /conditions... Or put another way, either will contribute to a long happy life when changed within its limits.
 
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