ATF+4 Recommendations? ('99 Dodge Durango 5.9l 4x4)

[Pablo]

Thanks Mola (I meant tricky as in tough, not trick as in impossible)

Wow great reading material I need to digest it a bit.

 

[MolaKule]

It is really not a trick question Pablo. IMHO, I believe the topic is a valid question.

I had been reading many technical papers (including SAE reprints) and patent disclosures and so far I have not seen a single paper on this topic, that no is patents or technical discussions on MV ATF's. Lots of good stuff on CSTCC's and shudder, and fluids for same, however.

Now most ATF Friction Modifiers are complex organic amines and esters, but the trick is to get an approx. one molecule thick friction surface developed at the time of engagement for that particular surface (friction) material, in order to prevent shudder or stick/slip.

Shotgunning, by using a host of friction modifiers in an attempt to have a "One-cover-all" fluid for transmissions with differing dynamic friction coefficients, somehow seems risky and litigous.

Now like everyone else, I wish the manufacturers would standardize on clutch materials, but alas, the manufacturers want everyone to think they are ahead (technologically speaking), and of course, they want their dealers to benefit from selling fluids that are priced two to three times over what one could purchase over-the-couter.


From http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000315

quote:

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The ATF has approximately 12-18 different additives in the base fluid, which is generally a paraffinic mineral oil. Later base fluid developments introduced Polyalpha olefins (PAO’s), di-esters, POE esters, alkylated naphthalenes, and alkylated benzenes for better oxidation and thermal resistance.

Of those additives, Ant-Wear (AW) and Friction-Modifcation additives are the most important. Most frictional materials in automatic transmissions are steel making contact with a steel-backed plate containing a surface made of fiber such as cellulose. The cellulose frictional material is bound by resins and may contain other materials such as carbon, asbestos fibers, or ceramics. The frictional materials in future automatic transmissions will contain mostly carbon fiber composites and ceramics.

Each manufacturer uses different clutch materials so the dynamic friction of each transmission is slightly different, hence the requirement for fluids of different dynamic frictional [and static] characteristics.

For heavy duty truck transmissions, sintered bronze and semi-metallic friction surfaces are the norm (such as used in Allison Transmissions).

Friction Modification:
When we use the term, “Friction-Modification” with a hyphen “-“ we infer a special friction additive that affects the “Dynamic” friction coefficients under spinning wet-type clutch plates and drums.

Dynamic friction is defined as the “changing of the coefficient of friction as the sliding speed between two frictional surfaces change.”

The friction coefficient of Dexron III/Mercon fluid increases as the sliding speed increases. The friction coefficient of Ford Type F fluid decreases as the sliding speed increases.

Stating the above sentence another way, Ford Type F fluid has a Low Cf at high speeds, and a high Cf at low speeds. Conversely, Dexron Type fluids have a High Cf at high speeds and a Low Cf at low speeds.

Highly specialized Friction-Modification additives determine the dynamic frictional characteristics of ATF’s. The F-M’s must be stable over long periods of usage; i.e., they must not change their dynamic frictional characteristics for at least 30,000 miles. These F-M additives will not show up in VOA's or UOA's.


Also see:
http://www.baumannengineering.com/alphabet.htm


http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcenter/articles/43836/article.html

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[ May 27, 2004, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[jeremiah2360]

A Dodge dealership in my area sells Amsoil. I was very surprised to see a wall of all Amsoil products there. I assume the owner or someone close to him is an Amsoil dealer. I have a Dodge Dakota and I am using Amsoil ATF,Amsoil oil,and Amsoil gear lube. If I ever have a problem with anything that Dodge might blame Amsoil on I`ll just take it to this dealership. I don`t see how they could deny a claim at a place that sells it.

Someone on a Dodge Dakota board posted that he saw a Dodge dealership selling Amsoil. Others posted they have Dodge dealers selling Amsoil too. So it is not uncommon. The only bad news(for me anyway)is the above dealership was sold,so the Amsoil wall may go too

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

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If I ever have a problem with anything that Dodge might blame Amsoil on I`ll just take it to this dealership. I don`t see how they could deny a claim at a place that sells it.

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DC could make the claim that DC speced fluids weren't used and that the dealership was out on its own limb (claims should be made to dealer, not DC) when they installed non-DC fluids.

If I were the dealer, I would put one row of DC fluids out front so everyone could see them and then ask the customer if they would prefer Amsoil fluids. Of course, dealer would still be legally responsible for those fluids.

Check out this potential scenario:

AT problem vehicle still under warranty. Customer takes the vehicle to dealer; dealer makes claim against DC; DC says DC speced fluid not used, not their problem even if under warranty; dealer makes claim against Amsoil; Amsoil says no, design problem, can't collect from us; customer then has to take dealer to court to get fixed or takes vehicle to non-DC tranny shop. Potential time car is not in service - 90 days to 18 months.

If I were dealer, I would have Al and boys send me a signed agreement that stated they will pay 50% of any all claims associated with any claims made against tranny failures while using Amsoil UATF.

Conclusion: In these litigous time one should be careful about making claims for products unless they have documentation (test and lab reports) supporting said claims.

[ May 28, 2004, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]