Are synths actually better than conventionals?

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Example: I have had the misfortune of having two of my vehciles overheated from failed cooling systems. My wife's van (water pump) and my father's Taurus (freeze plug). Both went into the red zone and were driven way farther than they should have been before shut down. My Taurus coked up the rings (see oil additive thread by me) because it was on conventional oil. The van, however, didn't coke up; it was running on synthetic (PP at the time, IIRC).
I had the good fortune that when my wife's Aerostar blew a heater hose and she was late for something, so that we drove about 8 miles on the freeway, that I happened to have a load of Redline in the Aerostar. I didn't notice any problems after that. Fixed the hose and the van has been running fine ever since.

Synthetic? Hmmmm, synthetic leather is fake. Is synthetic oil fake? Give me a nice load of Group I like my dad used to use. Anyone know where I can buy some old stock SJ?

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Example: I have had the misfortune of having two of my vehciles overheated from failed cooling systems. My wife's van (water pump) and my father's Taurus (freeze plug). Both went into the red zone and were driven way farther than they should have been before shut down. My Taurus coked up the rings (see oil additive thread by me) because it was on conventional oil. The van, however, didn't coke up; it was running on synthetic (PP at the time, IIRC).
I had the good fortune that when my wife's Aerostar blew a heater hose and she was late for something, so that we drove about 8 miles on the freeway, that I happened to have a load of Redline in the Aerostar. I didn't notice any problems after that. Fixed the hose and the van has been running fine ever since.

Synthetic? Hmmmm, synthetic leather is fake. Is synthetic oil fake? Give me a nice load of Group I like my dad used to use. Anyone know where I can buy some old stock SJ?

Has nothing to do with the oil, the most heat in an engine is in the combustion chamber. That combustion chamber is surrounded by a water jacketed area in the block and the cyl. head , the oil is seperated by the the waterjacket . Think about it. Gotta know how an engine works before making such a claim.

 

[Steve S]

I totally agree Doug. I just don't understand the 5,or 6,000 mile oil change intervals with syn oil. Though I had a used oil analysis done on my wifes Ford powerstroke manual trans and at 30,000 miles the lab suggested a change.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: JAG
For you fans of non-synthetics, what oils would you use in a 2003 VW GTI 1.8T and what OCI would you use? Assume it's out of warranty.
I Would not buy a V.W. . But that is an engine that requires syn oil for some reason?

 

[jaj]

Originally Posted By: bruce381
Me to i did not want to write all that and let me say that my original coment of "NO" should have said "DEPENDS"
bruce


How about "NO they're not better but they are more immune to the physical and chemical effects of use so it takes longer for them to become unusable".

It takes a long time/distance for the difference in stability to produce a discernible difference in performance.

 

[Audi Junkie]

I like Bruce's answer that nowadays "dino is synthetic and synthetic is dino". That sums it up.

For me "best" has to be tied to "cost". That is if I could buy dino for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of synthetic and change it 2-3 times as often, which produces a better result?

15k on synthetic vs 5k on dino???

Ding.

 

[ARB1977]

Time wise i would say yes, with synthetics youll spend less time changing oil and maybe in really cold climates.

 

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
Has nothing to do with the oil, the most heat in an engine is in the combustion chamber. That combustion chamber is surrounded by a water jacketed area in the block and the cyl. head , the oil is seperated by the the waterjacket . Think about it. Gotta know how an engine works before making such a claim.
No, it has a lot to do with the oil where it lubes the cylinder walls and rings. That is where the dnewton would have gotten his coking. Mine presumably did not coke because the Redline being ester based handled the heat just fine. You have to know how an engine works before you go countering people's claims.

 

[02zx9r]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
this will always be a contentious and debateable subject

Overall however I believe that Bruce is correct - if you don't NEED a synthetic to meet the manufacturer's lubricant specification for the engine or for warranty purposes then using a synthetic lubricant is probably a waste of money!


Seems like Bill in utah has been spouting that same claim it seems like forever!

 

[Brian Barnhart]

There are few, if any, areas where non-synthetic oils perform better than synthetics. So the simple answer to the OP question is yes. Synthetics are obviously better than non-synthetic oils in many ways. While it’s true that many users may unnecessarily lighten his/her wallet and reap no benefit from the use of synthetic oils in their particular application, synthetic oils are still fundamentally better.

 

[Johnny]

Better is in the eye of the beholder. Wait, that's beauty. Never mind.

 

[farrarfan1]

Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: mitchcoyote
Bruce you call yourself a Tribologist and you say NO. Your either lying or fooling yourself.......
How about Bruce really knows the facts?


bruce knows more than any of us.


And he's one of only a handful of people here that are actually qualified to give recomendations. I am constantly amused when posters ask for advice from "the experts" and they recieve five or six pages, or more, of advice from "the experts".

 

[Oilgal]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Has nothing to do with the oil, the most heat in an engine is in the combustion chamber. That combustion chamber is surrounded by a water jacketed area in the block and the cyl. head , the oil is seperated by the the waterjacket . Think about it. Gotta know how an engine works before making such a claim.



No, it has a lot to do with the oil where it lubes the cylinder walls and rings. That is where the dnewton would have gotten his coking. Mine presumably did not coke because the Redline being ester based handled the heat just fine. You have to know how an engine works before you go countering people's claims.

Beautiful.

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: JAG
For you fans of non-synthetics, what oils would you use in a 2003 VW GTI 1.8T and what OCI would you use? Assume it's out of warranty.
I Would not buy a V.W. . But that is an engine that requires syn oil for some reason?

Yes, if the owner knows what's good for him/her. It's a deposit prone engine. I only ever used synthetics and usually did 5K mile OCIs and still clogged up the whole PCV system with coke/varnish. Cost to replace: >$500. It's not like most engines where there is a just a hose and a PCV valve costing $4 that you can replace in a minute. It is an extensive system.

 

[glennc]

That might be a case where synthetics are better.

My personal preference for conventionals is empirical rather than technical and is based on cost/performance rather than performance alone. However there are definitely cases where I would choose synthetics. Doug Hillary mentioned several and the 1.8T might be another. There may be some overlap as it could be that the 1.8T was designed with synthetics in mind.

I would point out that automotive engineers themselves clearly have the ability to design a perfectly durable engine around any reasonable level of performance from the oil. You can make a bearing wider, for example, on increase its diameter, and it will reduce the specific load on the bearing and on the oil lubricating it, but the tradeoff will be more drag caused by the bearing and more space required for it. The tendency among European manufacturers seems to be to take the efficiency advantage and count on a higher grade of oil, whereas it seems a typical Toyota four-cylinder or GM engine will be designed with less stringent requirements for its oil. The same general tendency also seems to apply to fuels, as in whether high or regular octane is to be required.

That does add a bit of dimension to the question of what oil is best. In most engines run by most people in the US, I strongly believe that a synthetic will not protect the engine better over any possible engine lifespan, as long as the oil is changed at an appropriate interval for the application. I also believe that it is best to run a synthetic when it is legitimately required or can be shown to be helpful, and again to change it at an appropriate (longer, usually) interval.

I would bet that at least 90% of the cars on the road in the US fit in the first group, and the main point I try to make on BITOG when this comes up is that a great deal of synthetic oil is bought by people who are in the first group and do not realize it, or who are in either group and change their synthetic oil at short intervals. It's not a "save the world" issue exactly, but it is a waste and I believe one of the main points of BITOG, (and one of the main things I have benefitted from on BITOG) is exactly that kind of useful education.

 

[chet2]

syns are better for longer ocis and extreme temps...conventionals are very good though...but most of us here are pretty anal about engine oil

 

[byez]

how much crude oil gets used when making synthetic vs. dino?

 

[kartracer55]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: JAG
For you fans of non-synthetics, what oils would you use in a 2003 VW GTI 1.8T and what OCI would you use? Assume it's out of warranty.
I Would not buy a V.W. . But that is an engine that requires syn oil for some reason?

Yes, if the owner knows what's good for him/her. It's a deposit prone engine. I only ever used synthetics and usually did 5K mile OCIs and still clogged up the whole PCV system with coke/varnish. Cost to replace: >$500. It's not like most engines where there is a just a hose and a PCV valve costing $4 that you can replace in a minute. It is an extensive system.


I myself have wondered about this as well. I have seen about 3 of these engines suffer oil related failures in the past year or so. All of the customers did not strickly adhere to recommended oil change intervals and suffered failures. The most recent one was at 80k. The oil pickup screenS inside the motor were clogged causing oil starvation. Many of them are out of reach unless you drop the motor, and at that time, it was too late already.

Recently I have been advising customers with these engines to spring for mobil clean 5000 due to the detergents and go for 4kOCI's. Thoughts?

Jim

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Has nothing to do with the oil, the most heat in an engine is in the combustion chamber. That combustion chamber is surrounded by a water jacketed area in the block and the cyl. head , the oil is seperated by the the waterjacket . Think about it. Gotta know how an engine works before making such a claim.
No, it has a lot to do with the oil where it lubes the cylinder walls and rings. That is where the dnewton would have gotten his coking. Mine presumably did not coke because the Redline being ester based handled the heat just fine. You have to know how an engine works before you go countering people's claims.

How about air cooled engines? The problem is that I really know which is different than thinking I know.

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted By: JAG
For you fans of non-synthetics, what oils would you use in a 2003 VW GTI 1.8T and what OCI would you use? Assume it's out of warranty.

I'm a fan of non-synthetics. I would recommend using synthetic with 6K OCI. Shell Rotella 5W-40. I personally insist on using synthetic oil for any turbo application. That's what I use on my 2002 NewBeetle 1.8T. Of course it has a 4.8 qt sump. How large is the sump on your 1.8T?

Are synthetics better than conventionals?... Yes and No.... No, because they cost more. The technical answer is obvious, but price needs to be a consideration.