Are snow tires needed for SE Michigan winters?

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Originally Posted By: stevejones
I'd recommend snows for anyone who doesn't have 4WD or AWD. When I'm rolling my K1500 in 4HI & you pull out of a sidestreet, it's helpful to keep me from plowing into your wheel-spinning front end!


Lol OK.
 
At this point, my attitude is this: if you live somewhere where snow is more than an occasional occurrence and you don't have the luxury of always being able to stay home until the roads are thoroughly cleared, you absolutely, 100%, need snow tires.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: stevejones
I'd recommend snows for anyone who doesn't have 4WD or AWD. When I'm rolling my K1500 in 4HI & you pull out of a sidestreet, it's helpful to keep me from plowing into your wheel-spinning front end!

Who cares about going forward? Give me decent all seasons and I will go with X5 through any snow in CO, granted harder, but yes I will move forward. And if I get stuck? Oh well, someone will stop to help me pull out car same as I stop to help people who got stuck.
Problem is braking and staying on the road in the curves, and that is all up to the tire!
I am always amazed when people say: oh my god, I barely made it up the hill. OK, did you make it? YES. What about going back down the hill? That is when accidents and unfortunately deaths happen.


I'd rather have my front driver stuck in a parking lot than not be able to stop for a stop light or lose control turning or going down a hill.

I mean, it would be really nice to have the best of both worlds and have an AWD vehicle with snow tires. It wasn't until my parents bought the AWD Focuscape that I got to experience AWD and snow tires., Prior to that it was FWD or part time 4x4 with snow tires. For anything other than super deep snow, I preferred the FWD. Was WOWed by how amazing the AWD was with snow tires. The control, while pressing the throttle on a slipper corner, is just superb.

Unstoppable when you want to go, stoppable when you want to stop and also turns where you point it!

If someone in their vehicle pulls out infront of me, I can get going. And for the "drive slow" people - I can generally drive a bit faster than the "drive slow" crowd because I know my vehicle can perform evasive maneuvers if needed.

Of course, next thing we will hear is, having aggressive mud tires and diff locks is for those who do not know how to drive off road
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted By: stevejones
I'd recommend snows for anyone who doesn't have 4WD or AWD. When I'm rolling my K1500 in 4HI & you pull out of a sidestreet, it's helpful to keep me from plowing into your wheel-spinning front end!


You so eloquently make the point: 4WD and AWD don't help you stop!

For that reason you need true winter tires. Mounted in a set of four.

Winter tires don't just have a small advantage over all,seasons, they have a HUGE advantage. Often twice the traction on slush or ice. Twice the traction, and you would be able to stop your K1500 in 4HI....

Used to see wrecked Subies all the time when I lived in Stowe, VT. Always wrecked going down hill or around a turn. So much for the advantage of AWD...when you're not putting power to the ground, you're subject to the same laws of physics as everyone else...and in those moments, traction matters...
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
You so eloquently make the point: 4WD and AWD don't help you stop!

For that reason you need true winter tires. Mounted in a set of four.

Agreed. From my recent experience, we had a C300 4matic. Its winter capabilities with all-season tires were very disappointing. My RWD 530i with proper winter tires was more capable.
 
I should add that all those wrecked Subies had two things in common:

1. Flat lander plates.

2. All season tires.
 
The other big advantage of snow tires is that they'll handle much, much larger slip angles before letting go. Most all seasons give up totally once they start to slide or spin a little in snow, while most snows will handle slip angles so massive you'll be amazed and they still won't have let go completely. And because of that, you can feel when they're getting close to letting go entirely, most of the time.

That makes it much easier to use more of the grip you have. Add that you have more total grip on top of that, and you're way ahead of any all-season performance-wise.
 
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: Brybo86
I would say if your wife is a top notch driver I would be okay with all seasons, if she is a spaz maybe u should go with snows.

Also if you are rural snows might be a better choice.



I've always found these types of responses odd.

IMO, the entirety of life involves risk various risk assessments. If you have assets that you don't want to lose in an unlikely event, you pay to insure against it. I may drive well in the snow, but when someone cuts out from a side street or any other number of unforeseen events occur, snow tires may be the difference between a scrape, a dent, a smashed in fender, a totaled car or a dead occupant and stopping or swerving to avoid said event.

Neither my wife nor I had issue driving in the winter with all-season tires, but we have both had close calls. We're lucky enough to be able to afford snow tires, so we run them, with the knowledge that our risk has been lowered. I was actually pretty blown away about how much better snow tires reacted on both my Civic and previous Subaru.

Some don't assess the risk to be as high here in CT as I do and that's there prerogative, but we got a ton of snow last year and there were many people who got into accidents who might not have. I know I was only able to drive safely to work a couple of times, because I had snow tires.

With that said, I wouldn't own snow tires if I lived somewhere that gets snow less frequently, like Maryland or some other mid-Atlantic state. So, if you rarely get snow and ice, and feel that you can avoid the worst days by staying home, going in to work late, or whatever other way, then all-season tires may make sense. If that's not the case, and snow tires will provide even a small amount of additional grip when you need it, and you can afford it, then it's not even a question in my mind, to absolutely get snow tires.


One can take risk assessment to the Nth degree and upgrade all the safety and vehicle control systems on their vehicles to the current state of the art. That would include professional emergency driving courses on winter tracks. If you don't do all this, then you're compromising safety. Even the most upgraded vehicle with the world's best winter tires and brakes won't protect you from the 80% of US drivers in the snow belt that are on all season tires, or balding/old winter tires. Maybe you won't plow into the guy in front of you. It doesn't help you from the guy behind you or coming straight at you, or on your side who will plow into you. If it were mandatory then at least there would be a more even playing field. 40 years driving in CT on all season tires. I drive based on the traffic and conditions. The CT coastline in my region tends to get a lot more rain and slush vs. snow. And the plows in this region are pretty darn quick. For me at least, last years CT winter (ie snows) lasted 6-8 weeks (late January to mid-March). What about the other 45 weeks of the year?

Here's another thought. Do we put as much emphasis on superior wet (or dry) traction during the warmer months? Of course not. But then again, why not if safety (all year round) is of such a concern? A $1000-$1400 set of the very best rated dry/wet summer tires should be on every vehicle during non-winter months.


You just described risk over-reaction, not assessment. If my all-season tires hydro-planed excessively or couldn't stop in dry conditions, you bet your butt I'd swap them out!

As such, if you get any appreciable amount of snow (again, read my post about what I mean by this,) then it only makes sense to buy some form of snow tire, if you can afford it. If you haven't compared a snow tire to an all-season tire in the same car, under the same conditions, then you really can't know the difference - it's dramatic.

In my previous Subaru, it actually took some of the fun out of snow. I got stuck in my all-season tires and couldn't back out of my slightly graded spot, and had to be pushed out; however, I was able to have a little bit of fun in empty parking lots.

When I swapped in some WS70s, I'd have grip almost always, even while under boost, going up hill.

This past winter, our Forester with stock Geolanders had to be dug out and pushed out of our spot by helpful neighbors. The Civic, with snow tires, plowed right through without any help.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: gathermewool


With that said, I wouldn't own snow tires if I lived somewhere that gets snow less frequently, like Maryland or some other mid-Atlantic state. So, if you rarely get snow and ice, and feel that you can avoid the worst days by staying home, going in to work late, or whatever other way, then all-season tires may make sense. If that's not the case, and snow tires will provide even a small amount of additional grip when you need it, and you can afford it, then it's not even a question in my mind, to absolutely get snow tires.


+1, There's a "shoulder territory" where the weather is mild enough snow tires are optional. Where this is varies depending on who you ask. But there are places where so few other drivers have good tires or know how to drive it's better to stay off the roads when it's bad.


Great point. Even with snow tires, I've had numb nuts change lanes, PASSING cars, nearly losing it! It was so absurd I really couldn't do anything but laugh! You left the run-in ruts in the snow, because you want to go 5MPH faster in this [censored] weather? You almost lost control of your vehicle and hit the guy next to you....because you want to get to work 2 minutes before all of us!?

Wait, what!? You're doing the same thing again!?
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14

Winter tires don't just have a small advantage over all,seasons, they have a HUGE advantage. Often twice the traction on slush or ice. Twice the traction, and you would be able to stop your K1500 in 4HI....



If you're asserting I run all-seasons on my K1500, that would be incorrect. All-terrains are the norm, and I assure you I control my vehicle quite well.

The problem is with drivers in their car with all-seasons. They can't stop. They can't accelerate. The snow pushes their vehicle around a low threshold of instability. As a result, those of us properly equipped get to deal with the ramifications.
 
Originally Posted By: stevejones
Originally Posted By: Astro14

Winter tires don't just have a small advantage over all,seasons, they have a HUGE advantage. Often twice the traction on slush or ice. Twice the traction, and you would be able to stop your K1500 in 4HI....



If you're asserting I run all-seasons on my K1500, that would be incorrect. All-terrains are the norm, and I assure you I control my vehicle quite well.

The problem is with drivers in their car with all-seasons. They can't stop. They can't accelerate. The snow pushes their vehicle around a low threshold of instability. As a result, those of us properly equipped get to deal with the ramifications.

Pick-ups and JEEP's with AT tires are most frequent visitors of body shops here in CO, then Subaru's.
I just stay amazed that of 10 accidents I see, 7-8 involves pick-up trucks with AT tires, either slamming into someone from or loosing grip in the curve.
Subarus mostly just ram someone from behind since 99% runs on AS tires because, well they have Subaru. Granted they hold curves better then pick-ups, but that is not some comparison.
Since when AT tire is better then AS tire in braking on slippery roads? It is same s... just different package.
 
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Originally Posted By: Astro14

Winter tires don't just have a small advantage over all,seasons, they have a HUGE advantage. Often twice the traction on slush or ice.


Agree. I live in a fairly temperate place. Not warm down south nor colder inland or further north. No lake effect, and some modulating effect of the ocean.

Not every car has snows, but the ones that Id drive on a longer highway trip do. Why? Not because Im necessarily concerned about getting moving. Im scared of others who can get out of control and have issues, and I want to be able to avoid in a controlled manner. That is obtained much more greatly with snow/winter tires than all seasons.

Its to out-control the other people, stop before hitting someone else, and doing so in snow, ice, wet and slush.

No comparison.

Its not all about getting through absolute snow depth. Choice #1 should always be to NOT go out.
 
+1 on the Subaru drivers.. So easy to get going.. and the oem tires are so bad in the winter.

All-terrains fit into the all season category. Usually they are worse on ice/hardpack than many other all seasons because of the big tread voids and smaller amount of biting edges due to less siping.

Of course regular mud-terrains are among the worst all season for road use.
 
There are a few all terrains that have the snowflake symbol on them and do pretty well. Goodyear Duratrac and Discoverer AT/3 are the most popular. The Grabber AT2 and BFG AT (not KO2 - don't know too much about that) are good in snow but not ice.

Originally Posted By: Rand

Of course regular mud-terrains are among the worst all season for road use.



Mud tires are THE WORST. If you want something worse than all season or touring tires - there's your answer. I scared myself good a few years ago by sliding backwards down a hill for 1/4 mile.
 
Originally Posted By: Miller88
There are a few all terrains that have the snowflake symbol on them and do pretty well. Goodyear Duratrac and Discoverer AT/3 are the most popular. The Grabber AT2 and BFG AT (not KO2 - don't know too much about that) are good in snow but not ice.

Originally Posted By: Rand

Of course regular mud-terrains are among the worst all season for road use.



Mud tires are THE WORST. If you want something worse than all season or touring tires - there's your answer. I scared myself good a few years ago by sliding backwards down a hill for 1/4 mile.

Problem with AT tires is that they are more rugged and average driver think that that is recipe for deep snow, kind of like: I have truck, I can do whatever mentality. First let's not forget that trucks are probably the worst vehicles on the roads. They are build for farms, for construction workers not for "parading" on the streets.
AT and especially Mud tires have fairly large tread blocks that are progressively harder as tire is more rugged for mud. They lack very often any small sipes that will grab surface when braking and usually do not have any necessary chemical compounds needed for a tire to stay flexible on cold temperatures. Because of large tread blocks and space between them that serves for evacuating dirt and mud, they will also evacuate snow. Since most trucks have 4WD they go forward, and drivers think that they have unstoppable vehicle. They are right in that: they do have unstoppable vehicle.
Whenever I see truck closing in my rearview mirror I just hit the gas. They cannot stop properly on dry not to mention on slippery surface.
 
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All terrains ARE all seasons. They're just ones with more aggressive, more open tread. They usually work fine in deeper snow, but once it gets packed down or icy, they've got the same faults as any other all season.

As far as trucks, their biggest issue in the snow is the light rear end. The quad cab trucks with laughably short beds that have become so common are a little better about this, but they still don't have a very good weight balance when empty, so handling in the snow becomes a problem.
 
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
All terrains ARE all seasons. They're just ones with more aggressive, more open tread. They usually work fine in deeper snow, but once it gets packed down or icy, they've got the same faults as any other all season.

As far as trucks, their biggest issue in the snow is the light rear end. The quad cab trucks with laughably short beds that have become so common are a little better about this, but they still don't have a very good weight balance when empty, so handling in the snow becomes a problem.

Yes you are right, you can say AT are AS just designed for trucks. Problem is that their design is even worst when it comes to braking and why they are not good on packed snow? No sipes and compound is not made for cold weather but dirt, mud, dry roads or wet roads, but not for snow and cold temps.
Yes, light rear end with very simple sturdy built for cargo suspension makes them very easy to end up in the ditch. Problem is that not many drivers are aware of that, judging by situation here every time it snows.
 
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
Most good A/Ts are siped (M/Ts typically aren't), although the sipes aren't as dense as some less aggressive all seasons.

And again depends on compound.
 
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