Are Michelins really better than the other brands?

[kr_bitog]

Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
Cool, I'm getting a new pair of PS2s mounted tomorrow - this might come in handy

Not getting PS3 or Super Sport ? I've just installed PS3 and I can say it make a day and night difference compared to Hankook V12, which is regarded quite well as well.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: FordFocus
They have to press the center menu button until one of the tab options is "measure rim runout". This will put the machine in forcematch mode if the tire isn't over the limit.

Thanks, we have gained a good rep especially in the RV business because of our balancing.

I wish I would of taken some pics to show where in the menu it is, I will try to get some for you.


FordFocus,

You may be the first person who I've encountered who knows the right way to do this. But just a question so I can verify.

Do you mount the tire first, then match mount? Or do you measure the bare rim first?

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: kr_bitog

Not getting PS3 or Super Sport ? I've just installed PS3 and I can say it make a day and night difference compared to Hankook V12, which is regarded quite well as well.


I'm getting a PAIR, and I want the new pair to match my old pair. I didn't even look at anything else. As a matter of fact, last fall I was worried that the PS2 would end up discontinued before I could buy this pair.

A few months ago when I was merely curious, PS3s weren't available in sizes as small as mine (235/45/17). Tirerack lists the Super Sport in my size but not in stock and ~15% higher price.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Aaaargh, that's the first bad comment I've seen about the Ventus V12!

Can you please elaborate on the differences?

 

[kr_bitog]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Aaaargh, that's the first bad comment I've seen about the Ventus V12!

Can you please elaborate on the differences?


The V12 is good tyre, but PS3 is just way better, especially with the price point they offered (not much different on price for small size).
I thought one of the tyre reviewer was daydreaming talking about non-existent comfort on V12 since everyone said the tyre feel soft due to soft sidewall when people pump up quite high pressure. What I find, if I pump according to load index spec, the tyre feel very hard with no comfort but the steering response somewhat slow. So to increase comfort, the tyre need to be pumped a few psi higher, but it feels harsher.

The V12 has very good wet traction and can stop very well on wet, but the aquaplanning capability is still not on par with PS3 or Goodyear F1 GSD3.

 

[FordFocus]

[/quote]
FordFocus,
You may be the first person who I've encountered who knows the right way to do this. But just a question so I can verify.
Do you mount the tire first, then match mount? Or do you measure the bare rim first?
[/quote]

You would mount the tire first and then match mount. Although there is the option to do a bare rim runout too, but this only tell you the specs of the rim. We will sometimes mount new tires and line up the yellow dot on the sidewall with the valve stem but this doesn't always put the tire at the best position on the wheel.
If some someone having a really,really,really hard time to get his tires to ride smoothly there is a more extensive process yet then formatching and it is called "matchmaker", when I first seen it i thought it sounded like a dating service lol! This is a VERY long process where you go thru all 4 tires on the vehicle and do rim run-outs and I don't remember all the steps but in the end it tells you what tire to put on what rim and where to mount them on each rim so you are paring each tire with the best rim for that tire.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: FordFocus
......You would mount the tire first and then match mount. Although there is the option to do a bare rim runout too, but this only tell you the specs of the rim........


Aren't the "specs" of the rim what you are looking for?

Originally Posted By: FordFocus
......... We will sometimes mount new tires and line up the yellow dot on the sidewall with the valve stem but this doesn't always put the tire at the best position on the wheel.....


Yes, that is true. Both the yellow dot and the value hole are not 100%.

Originally Posted By: FordFocus
......If some someone having a really,really,really hard time to get his tires to ride smoothly there is a more extensive process yet then formatching and it is called "matchmaker", when I first seen it i thought it sounded like a dating service lol! This is a VERY long process where you go thru all 4 tires on the vehicle and do rim run-outs and I don't remember all the steps but in the end it tells you what tire to put on what rim and where to mount them on each rim so you are paring each tire with the best rim for that tire.....


You're right, there is a process called "Matchmaker", and it is quite extensive - but if you are going to go to the trouble of matching mounting a tire on EVERY wheel, you really ought to measure the bare wheel first. The other way doesn't actually measure the surface the tire is riding on - the one that controls the uniformity - which is why I asked the question.

Frankly, I think that unless you have a problem assembly, the time required to match an assembly isn't worth the effort.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

Frankly, I think that unless you have a problem assembly, the time required to match an assembly isn't worth the effort.


You might be right. The thing I notice, however, is the number of tire shops that have Hunters but

1/ don't know how to do this (and admit it)
2/ or say "yeah, yeah, of course" when you ask for Forcematch mounting, and don't know what you're talking about
3/ know what you're talking about, say "yes of course" and then don't do it; and
4/ for some reason won't do it even when you're willing to pay for it

I go to a shop that is popular in my area, but is still a smaller family business and not a huge chain. They have flexibility in their prices and often cut you slack when doing rebalances and what not. IMO, they operate more like a "pay by the hour" independent mechanic than a "piece work" large corporate shop. I also drop off assemblies, my car doesn't occupy a bay or lift while they're working on my job like with 80%+ of their customers - I'm not sure if I'm getting a bit of a break now and then because of that or not (but I should).

If I ask for ForceMatch, just DO IT and charge me $5 or $10 extra according to the shop time I actually occupied. This should particularly be done when the customer is buying expensive tires and the extra $5-$10 per assembly is small on a percentage basis.

 

[FordFocus]

Aren't the "specs" of the rim what you are looking for?

Yes but the with the rim specs you still don't know what the best spot on the rim is for the tire.

you really ought to measure the bare wheel first....

This doesn't work usually because the vehicle comes in with tires on the rims already unless you have new wheels and new tires that aren't mounted yet

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: FordFocus
Aren't the "specs" of the rim what you are looking for?

Yes but the with the rim specs you still don't know what the best spot on the rim is for the tire.

you really ought to measure the bare wheel first....

This doesn't work usually because the vehicle comes in with tires on the rims already unless you have new wheels and new tires that aren't mounted yet


Yes, but at some point in time, the tire is taken off the rim. It is at that point that the bare rim could be measured. That does, however, increase the length of time needed to do an exchange.

But what I was getting at is that the bead seat area is the part of the rim that controls the run out of the assembly and by measuring a bare rim you get the low point location more accurately. Measuring the tire using the "normal" way measures some other surface - one that isn't the best for finding the low spot - and in some cases, it will not find the spot at all.

There are a lot of practices used (or not used) that impact the final uniformity of a tire and rim assembly. I'll give you an example: Lubing the rim.

Most folks do not lube the bead seat area when mounting a tire. We've found several instances where we can get better seating and changed (for the better) the final assembly uniformity. I think if someone goes through the trouble of trying to match mount ALL tires, they would be further ahead to take the extra time to measure the bare wheel.

Alternatively, match mounting only the assemblies that show excessive values can be a time saver.

It's sort of the difference between doing it right and doing it quickly. Quickly is cool, but I don't want anyone thinking that you get 100% accurate results by measuring the rim with the tire on it!

 

[FordFocus]

Agreed, doing rim run-out with no tire on the rim is more accurate but you still would want to know what the high spot is on the tire is so what you could do is road force the tire and rim and mark tire, then dismount tire off rim and do a bare rim run-out to find low spot on rim more accurately.

I also agree that lubing the rim is a good idea.

Another thing that can be done is to air up a tire to max pressure and then deflate it completely and then re-air up the tire to operating pressure. This is done to make sure the beads are properly seating on the rim. This can be very helpful on low-profile tires. I have been surprised how much air it can take sometimes to get a low profile tire to seat up.

 

[digitalSniperX1]

One example to the contrary:

Our RDX came with a fairly pricey set of Michelins that were done at around 40k. They were replaced with a set of Bridgestone Alenza's that are superior in every way EXCEPT rolling resistance and they cost about 50 dollars less per tire. The difference in that regard is actually noticeable and perhaps the cost difference would be offset by improved fuel economy (still figuring that one out).

I can't believe a statement proclaiming Michelins to be truly superior to its competitors is a universal truth.

 

[SteveSRT8]

No complaint about ANY tire is universal. There is simply too much variation from size to size even in the exact same construction.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: digitalSniperX1
One example to the contrary:

Our RDX came with a fairly pricey set of Michelins that were done at around 40k. They were replaced with a set of Bridgestone Alenza's that are superior in every way EXCEPT rolling resistance and they cost about 50 dollars less per tire. The difference in that regard is actually noticeable and perhaps the cost difference would be offset by improved fuel economy (still figuring that one out).

I can't believe a statement proclaiming Michelins to be truly superior to its competitors is a universal truth.

OEM tires are designed by the vehicle manufacturer, not the tire supplier. It is not fair for you to blame the problem on Michelin.

 

[digitalSniperX1]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: digitalSniperX1
One example to the contrary:

Our RDX came with a fairly pricey set of Michelins that were done at around 40k. They were replaced with a set of Bridgestone Alenza's that are superior in every way EXCEPT rolling resistance and they cost about 50 dollars less per tire. The difference in that regard is actually noticeable and perhaps the cost difference would be offset by improved fuel economy (still figuring that one out).

I can't believe a statement proclaiming Michelins to be truly superior to its competitors is a universal truth.

OEM tires are designed by the vehicle manufacturer, not the tire supplier. It is not fair for you to blame the problem on Michelin.


Well I didn't say there was a problem...just that they are not as good as what I replaced them with.

And the tires are Michelin Pilot HX MXM4....which come as original tires on more than just Acuras...so I'm not sure which manufacturer to blame.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: digitalSniperX1

Well I didn't say there was a problem...just that they are not as good as what I replaced them with.

And the tires are Michelin Pilot HX MXM4....which come as original tires on more than just Acuras...so I'm not sure which manufacturer to blame.


The attributes that Acura was looking for were probably different than yours.

The molds and the brand/model name are may be the same but the compound is likely platform specific. An example is that the Goodyear Eagle RSA is used in some economy cars, but also on some sporty sedans. The ones on the sporty sedans handle quite crisply-- can't say that about the ones on Corollas!

 

[digitalSniperX1]

I'm not buying that....unless they were highly tilted on the rolling resistance specs.

I don't think there are any differences in tread design, compound, etc on these tires. They all have the same sidewall rating, etc.

And Corolla's handle like wheelbarrows no matter what tires are on it. I had RSA's on a Mazda 3 and it handled quite well...the tire however wasn't all that great...not bad...just not great.

About as good as the Michelins on the RDX in fact. 40k miles, almost all highway, and pretty much gone. Noisy at that point. Very bad in wet weather also. Ditto RSA's.

 

[The Critic]

See this post by CapriRacer, who is a tire engineer:

Quote:
The specs for OE tires are set by the vehicle manufacturer. So the tires on your Corolla are quite different than the specs for the Honda Pilot. I'm not talking just about size, I'm talking performance characterisitics like treadwear, traction, etc. - and the specs are specific to the vehicle. Even a Toyota Camry will be different than a Toyota Corolla (again, not just size.)

Vehicle manufacturers are typically more interested in a tire's rolling resistance and they can get better RR by sacrificing treadwear or traction (or both).

I am finding that many traction complaints (and they are usually wet traction complaints) are coming from Japanese vehicles. I suspect this is because the traction tests are taking place in Japan and the surface they are testing on is different than the surface that would be used for testing in the US. The net result is that there are some road surfaces in the US where these tires get poor traction (especially wet traction).

Add to this that some vehicles - because of horsepower or alignment settings, etc. - are not particularly nice to tires.

Bottomline: You will see quite different results for what appears to be the same tire - and it all depends on what the vehicle manufacturer specifies. And since the vehicle manufacturer is rarely blamed for the shortcoming of the tire, there is not a good amount of negative feedback regarding the vehicle manufacturer's specs (except to the tire manufacturer, and he is pretty much in the position of either giving what the vehicle wants or not - and if he doesn't another tire manufacturer will!) and the vehicle manufacturer's tire specs do not get revised to reflect real world experience.

On the other hand, tires designed for the replacement market are designed by the tire manufacturer and typically they are designed for good wear and at least a reasonable amount of traction with very little emphasis on rolling resistance.

To make matters worse, when a vehicle manufacturer no longer uses a particular tire for his vehicle, the tire manufacturer will redesign the tire to their own internal specs. The result is a completely different tire than what originally came on the car.


Hopefully this clears up the issue for you.


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1210775

 

[digitalSniperX1]

IF what is posted is true for this particular car and tire...then Michelin are damaging their brand...something not in their best interest. Not terribly...but with respect to the tires I've replaced them with, they are. Lower cost and higher performance, better ride, better wear (so far) and quieter all add up to a better tire.

The rolling resistance performance advantage the Michelin tires have is a feature of the tire's design, with a michelin branding called Green-X. And that's available on many of its tires.

And apparently it works, because those tires were fantastic in that regard...at least relative to the Bridgestone tires that were bought to replace them. I'm still working on this...but I think we've lost about 2mpg at 65mph.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Despite all the Hooey Michelin remains a top tier brand with a fabulous reputation and excellent performance for most.

While it may not meet your specs it does well for a lot of folks.

Your anecdotal experience is simply not indicative of the brand overall.

Repeat: there is no "best" tire.