Are magnetic drain plugs worth it?
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Absolutely. Rust is simply naturally ocurring ferric oxide which forms on unprotectedquote:
Originally posted by gtx510:
is rust magnetic?
iron - aided by damp and/or salt air. The coating on standard audio tape is also ferric oxide, albeit in an excrutiatingly uniformly fine powder and extremely purified. Physically these fine oxide crystals appear needle-like under magnification. Once magnetized they carry a "north" and "south" pole just like any other magnet.
Iron forms a number of different oxides most of which are usually refered to as rust. Some are magnetic, and some aren't.
I never heard anybody refer to the black iron oxide coating on wrought iron as rust.
I never heard anybody refer to the black iron oxide coating on wrought iron as rust.
Kestas
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There are three basic forms of rust - FeO, Fe3O4, and Fe2O3. In cross section under the microscope, you can see all three layers on heavily rusted metal. Only Fe3O4 is magnetic. It is also called magnetite.
Though chromium oxide is magnetic, it doesn't mean chromium metal is magnetic.
Labman, black iron oxide is simply one form of rust that is not hydrated. If it was hydrated, it would probably be orange.
Ray, you don't know what you're talking about. Please stop spreading misinformation.
[ September 19, 2006, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Kestas ]
Though chromium oxide is magnetic, it doesn't mean chromium metal is magnetic.
Labman, black iron oxide is simply one form of rust that is not hydrated. If it was hydrated, it would probably be orange.
Ray, you don't know what you're talking about. Please stop spreading misinformation.
[ September 19, 2006, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Kestas ]
How about this theory.....
Since everyone on this forum wants to keep their cars forever, you put a magnet on that was pulled from the earth or magnetized at the same time.
Let's say your car lasts for 10,000 years.
Geologists have proven that magnets from back then point to the South pole instead of the North.
Would your magnet then lose its magnetism after this period? What about replacement costs on magnets in the year 12,000 AD?
These are things to consider.
I'd say it can't hurt; we have them in the Honda transmissions and they do pick up stuff from time to time.
Since everyone on this forum wants to keep their cars forever, you put a magnet on that was pulled from the earth or magnetized at the same time.
Let's say your car lasts for 10,000 years.
Geologists have proven that magnets from back then point to the South pole instead of the North.
Would your magnet then lose its magnetism after this period? What about replacement costs on magnets in the year 12,000 AD?
These are things to consider.
I'd say it can't hurt; we have them in the Honda transmissions and they do pick up stuff from time to time.
Kestas
Staff member
Ray, these are other metals that are paramagnetic: aluminum, magnesium, platinum.
Please explain how paramagnetism fits into this discussion.
Believe me, I'm trying very hard not to get personal in this thread.
Oilyriser, yes, gadolinium is ferromagnetic. I forgot about that one. I was working from memory. Dysprosium is only sometimes ferromagnetic. It is mostly paramagnetic.
Please explain how paramagnetism fits into this discussion.
Believe me, I'm trying very hard not to get personal in this thread.
Oilyriser, yes, gadolinium is ferromagnetic. I forgot about that one. I was working from memory. Dysprosium is only sometimes ferromagnetic. It is mostly paramagnetic.
The fact that materials displaying paramagnetism properties are subject to magnetic attraction in a discussion of powerful magnetic drain plugs and low mass particulates might be logically taken as prima facia evidence of the concept's "fit".
(Broadcasting the insulting accusations through the ether, and I'm paraphrasing, here, for the sake of proper grammar, that I don't know what I'm talking about and spreading misinformation could be taken as an example of treading none too lightly on getting personal...
)
(Broadcasting the insulting accusations through the ether, and I'm paraphrasing, here, for the sake of proper grammar, that I don't know what I'm talking about and spreading misinformation could be taken as an example of treading none too lightly on getting personal...
You guys! All I know is my magnets pick up debris which I whipe off onto paper towels and inspect under the microscope. With some oils, I saw shiny metal sphere-shaped particles. With all oils, there also was black particles that were VERY small (microscope couldn't hone in on them) and they looked like soot. Any explanation for this soot-looking debris that would stick to my magnets?
Kestas
Staff member
I think the fact that Chromium is paramagnetic at ~120°K (-244°F) excites anybody. We're more worried about what a magnet will pick up at operating engine temperatures.
If you're saying that magnets will pick up aluminum and other paramagnetic material, then say it in such a way that we can all understand it. At least that's how I follow your logic. I always thought magnets can't pick up aluminum.
JAG, I have a lot of experience looking at contaminant debris under the microscope. Soot is soft and rarely collects as round, shiny balls. I suspect you're looking at weld spatter. Just yesterday I was looking at small, round tiny (<200 micron) black spheres on a part for a client. It wasn't the subject of the investigation, so I didn't go in depth on this, but I told him it is probably weld spatter and the black color is oxide.
If you're saying that magnets will pick up aluminum and other paramagnetic material, then say it in such a way that we can all understand it. At least that's how I follow your logic. I always thought magnets can't pick up aluminum.
JAG, I have a lot of experience looking at contaminant debris under the microscope. Soot is soft and rarely collects as round, shiny balls. I suspect you're looking at weld spatter. Just yesterday I was looking at small, round tiny (<200 micron) black spheres on a part for a client. It wasn't the subject of the investigation, so I didn't go in depth on this, but I told him it is probably weld spatter and the black color is oxide.
Soot or oxidation insolubles with bound metallic content?
Kestas and Ray,
I should clarify: my magnet sits inside the oil filter. It was designed for that purpose and has "polished surfaces for increased coercivity" or something like that. There can't be weld splatter getting on it. The shiny spheres were clearly metal and were much larger and much less plentiful than the dark particles that the microscope couldn't define for my eyes. My microscope is old school (from the 60's) and doesn't have much magnification...I don't know its magnification. Not knowing what this black stuff is has been a problem because some oils caused much more of the stuff to end up on the magnet than the others. And one that had a lot of black stuff did not seem to have any shiny metal particles...as far as I could tell.
I should clarify: my magnet sits inside the oil filter. It was designed for that purpose and has "polished surfaces for increased coercivity" or something like that. There can't be weld splatter getting on it. The shiny spheres were clearly metal and were much larger and much less plentiful than the dark particles that the microscope couldn't define for my eyes. My microscope is old school (from the 60's) and doesn't have much magnification...I don't know its magnification. Not knowing what this black stuff is has been a problem because some oils caused much more of the stuff to end up on the magnet than the others. And one that had a lot of black stuff did not seem to have any shiny metal particles...as far as I could tell.
Kestas
Staff member
The best way to identify these particles is using SEM/EDS methods. This is one of the things I do for a living. Anything else is speculation.
If the particles are magnetic, then they are probably iron-based. I haven't yet seen shiny soot in ball form, much less magnetic.
If they're big enough, then you could analyze them using metallographic methods to look at the microstructure, which will give a clue to the origin. From here it still smells like weld spatter, though the history of where you got this contamination raises the question as to where it came from.
[ September 19, 2006, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Kestas ]
If the particles are magnetic, then they are probably iron-based. I haven't yet seen shiny soot in ball form, much less magnetic.
If they're big enough, then you could analyze them using metallographic methods to look at the microstructure, which will give a clue to the origin. From here it still smells like weld spatter, though the history of where you got this contamination raises the question as to where it came from.
[ September 19, 2006, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Kestas ]
The company who makes these magnets claim that particle aglomeration occurs and so even non-magnetic particles get caught up in the mix. I can't verify that, just saying what they said and they have test data to show it. I can't for life of me remember what the company is...that sure would help out.
I didn't say the black particles are spheres since I can't tell what shape they are. The metal particles look like spheres. THe only possible new source of weld splatter would be the insides of my Mann oil filters but since I'm seeing very different levels of this black stuff with different oils and same brand of oil filters, it seems we can throw that possibility out.
I didn't say the black particles are spheres since I can't tell what shape they are. The metal particles look like spheres. THe only possible new source of weld splatter would be the insides of my Mann oil filters but since I'm seeing very different levels of this black stuff with different oils and same brand of oil filters, it seems we can throw that possibility out.
Since chrome's paramagnetic properties become evident at its Neel point of about -244 deg. F, and above, engine temperatures wouldn't be a factor. As far as "aluminum and other paramagnetic material", I never mentioned them, but for reasons known only by you, Kestas, you're now attempting to obfuscate the discussion by stirring the pot with unrelated additional metal references to a challenge about chrome that you initiated. Ain't gonna happen. (At least you finally admitted, if only grudgingly, that metallic chrome will exhibit magnetic properties in the presence of a magnetic field at temperatures above its Neel point. You're to be commended for that.
Back to the topic at hand: I have a magnetic drain plug for my motorcycle, and Terry doesn't seem to worry about its effect on UOAs.
I bought the bike used, and the amount of stuff clinging to the magnet has decreased with each oil change. At the first oil change the plug looked like this. Subsequent oil changes had almost no "spikey hairs"; instead, the magnet was covered with something the consistency of toothpaste. No grit to it between my fingers, though.
At the last oil change the plug was almost clean. It's probably a combination of increased miles (completion of engine break-in) and more frequent oil changes with a better quality oil (Red Line now; previous owner used Kawasaki's house brand at crazy OCIs).
So, hey, it doesn't hurt anything, it doesn't negatively impact UOAs or Terry's interpretations, and I get a quick visual at each OCI as to how much ferrous gunk is (or is not) floating around in my oil. Sounds like an all-around winner to me.
I bought the bike used, and the amount of stuff clinging to the magnet has decreased with each oil change. At the first oil change the plug looked like this. Subsequent oil changes had almost no "spikey hairs"; instead, the magnet was covered with something the consistency of toothpaste. No grit to it between my fingers, though.
At the last oil change the plug was almost clean. It's probably a combination of increased miles (completion of engine break-in) and more frequent oil changes with a better quality oil (Red Line now; previous owner used Kawasaki's house brand at crazy OCIs).
So, hey, it doesn't hurt anything, it doesn't negatively impact UOAs or Terry's interpretations, and I get a quick visual at each OCI as to how much ferrous gunk is (or is not) floating around in my oil. Sounds like an all-around winner to me.
For those of us with a 4.0L Jeep engine, the Iron King, the magnet would probably be benefitial compared to these newer cars with aluminium blocks/heads.
The real value of a magnetic drain plug is that it gives you some idea if there is any change in how fast the engine is consuming it's iron containing bits.
A really strong magnet attached to the drain plug also makes it hard to drop the plug. It also makes it harder to get the plug straight back in the hole without getting side tracked.
A magnet will also tell you if your camshaft is starting to flake apart.
A magnet will also tell you if your camshaft is starting to flake apart.
Again, you go to great lengths to try the patience of the moderators on this site with personal potshots along with repeated (and very successfull) efforts to discredit yourself, Kestas. Chromium metal is paramagnetic below its Neel point (~120K) - attracted to magnetic fields. However, unlike ferromagnetics, which are also attracted to magnetic fields, paramagnetics retain no magnetization in the absence of an external magnetic field. The relative strength of a rare earth magnet imbedded in a drain plug and the very small mass of individual worn chromium or chromium content metal fragments flitting about in the engine oil will be quite effectively handled by a magnetic drain plug and/or a hard drive magnet affixed to the side of an oil filter.
[ September 19, 2006, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
gadolinium
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