Just wait till the first fleet of cars is bricked by a bad update. Might not be Tesla but we will probably see a CrowdStrike moment in automotive.
Are cloud-based automotive electronics a real liability?
- Thread starter avacado11
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Most conventional automakers can’t update anything but infotainment via OTA. The rest of the car’s modules are strings of CAN, FlexRay, etc. or similarly attached embedded microcontrollers.
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Personally I believe so.
I’m old enough to have worked on infrastructure gear where if your employer bought it (and spent tens of millions), it’s their’s and they have control of it. Not the case at all today, as we saw on Friday.
Think about baby steps. There was a time when a car owner used a paper clip.
Or, they disconnected the battery. This reset the car’s computer.
That doesn’t even work on my wife’s 2011. Pending and stored codes can only be cleared by the car. Now, imagine connected cars. 14 years of locking down has taken place.
That dang outage Friday cost me 14 hours of my life I’ll never get back. And my co hasn’t recovered. How about Kronos was it late 2022 into 2023? Down a month? It’s befuddling how the majority of cos rely upon the same vendor.
I’m old enough to have worked on infrastructure gear where if your employer bought it (and spent tens of millions), it’s their’s and they have control of it. Not the case at all today, as we saw on Friday.
Think about baby steps. There was a time when a car owner used a paper clip.
Or, they disconnected the battery. This reset the car’s computer.
That doesn’t even work on my wife’s 2011. Pending and stored codes can only be cleared by the car. Now, imagine connected cars. 14 years of locking down has taken place.
That dang outage Friday cost me 14 hours of my life I’ll never get back. And my co hasn’t recovered. How about Kronos was it late 2022 into 2023? Down a month? It’s befuddling how the majority of cos rely upon the same vendor.
How is that befuddling? they go with what's cheapest... can't justify anything else.
What problems are you speaking of ? Is there any evidence a OTA update by car maker has caused an issue….
It’s not a theory when they’ve all come true…
That must be one of those snarky internet show me the white paper comments?
Any device can brick doing a firmware update - OTA or otherwise, if the memory doesn't accept the update completely or the memory has otherwise failed. Its just less inconvenient to the owner when it happens in the dealers bay vs the walmart parking lot.
OP doesn't want updates - it should be his right, its his truck. Most vehicles never get their firmware updated and they continue to motor down the road.
On my Toyota, I can pull the DCM fuse, but that will disable the bluetooth mic and the driver side speaker. You can jump some wires to make the speaker work, but the mic is apparently powered by the DCM, so not sure if it’s possible to bring it back.
There was a guy that successfully de-soldered the e-SIM and kept the DCM powered, but this requires a heat station and good microchip soldering skills.
Having said that, I don’t see it as a liability as these systems are not fully integrated into the rest of the vehicle. They just serve as data collection boxes, that’s about it.
There was a guy that successfully de-soldered the e-SIM and kept the DCM powered, but this requires a heat station and good microchip soldering skills.
Having said that, I don’t see it as a liability as these systems are not fully integrated into the rest of the vehicle. They just serve as data collection boxes, that’s about it.
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I’ve looked at those CVs. The only thing keeping me from them is the lack of a traditional pick up bed, and any sort of hauling deck would be an additional cost. Would like to stay around $80k for the truck
What trim level do you have? I keep thinking about the update that bricked those new Colorado/Canyons. I think I read somewhere that the trucks wouldn’t start after. But apparently now it turns out that basically the headunit drained the 12v down causing no start vs what they initially said was the update causing the vehicle to stop functioning as a whole
From what I’ve heard GMs new vehicle intelligence platform ties everything into the same system down to the engine sensors and emissions components. I could care less about someone knowing my whereabouts. I just don’t want a situation where an OTA update bricks my truck at a rest stop
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If the "Cloud" is a bunch of servers in a bunch of buildings located in who knows where, I'd think liability could be a problem. Perhaps I've seen too many episodes of Mission Impossible.
That's incorrect. GM can update their hands free"Super Cruise" driving system via OTA updates.
I have not tried it - but someone figured out how to disconnect the charge on whatever the DCM module is for the new Rav4. Apparently said connection module - essentially a limited cell phone type device - has its own battery - so after removing the battery DCM was disabled.
They didn't comment on if you loose bluetooth. They did say that if you do use bluetooth the system will essentially just connect to their system via your phone anyway - so there is that.
I have not disconnected mine. I do not like these new cars at all honestly - but as stated, if you want the tech, you need to take all their tech.
https://www.rav4world.com/threads/2019-rav4-dcm-deactivate-procedure.304339/
All these new systems have some sort of remote start via cell phone capability - whether its enabled in your trim or not. So by definition, the infotainment is connected to the start / security circuit. Its likely connected to more than that via CAN - but its going to be system specific.
Surely no OEM is dumb enough to try an ECU update remote - although possibly I give them too much credit. However if their infotainment is tied to the remote start / security I can certainly see them pushing a update to it, especially if they find a vulnerability. Some small percentage may brick the system due to a memory failure even if the update is good - which most often happens during a write cycle.
Not saying its going to be common, but saying its not possible or even likely for some small sample is foolish. Do you trust Mary Barra or Jim Farley to make good decisions on your behalf?
Surely no OEM is dumb enough to try an ECU update remote - although possibly I give them too much credit. However if their infotainment is tied to the remote start / security I can certainly see them pushing a update to it, especially if they find a vulnerability. Some small percentage may brick the system due to a memory failure even if the update is good - which most often happens during a write cycle.
Not saying its going to be common, but saying its not possible or even likely for some small sample is foolish. Do you trust Mary Barra or Jim Farley to make good decisions on your behalf?
https://www.motortrend.com/news/connected-cars-data-privacy-issues-sex-speeding/
As they are also computers...they are hackable and breakable over the air if someone feels like it. Places with nosy law enforcement can simply shut a car down at some point and dress it up as a glitch "officially".
Anyone who doesn't think a car is a computer is still living in 00s and before. They are essentially going to be uber phat smartphones with a giant fire hazard.
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I don’t mean to be naive, but I was not aware that my 2006 has a black box, and that on my wife’s 2011, DTCs cannot be cleared out by disconnecting the battery, nor by an OBD2 scanner. Only the car can clear out the codes.
Seeing as a lot of time has passed since 2006 and 2011, it’s safe to bet that a lot has moved in the direction of the house winning, and car owner losing.
Tesla, GM, There are probably others-haven't looked at it. Wouldn't be surprised if some of the luxury makes are included as well. Anyway-it's a lot of vehicles.
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I don’t trust those two, but I do trust Chris Farley. Tommy Boy knew autos.All these new systems have some sort of remote start via cell phone capability - whether its enabled in your trim or not. So by definition, the infotainment is connected to the start / security circuit. Its likely connected to more than that via CAN - but its going to be system specific.
Surely no OEM is dumb enough to try an ECU update remote - although possibly I give them too much credit. However if their infotainment is tied to the remote start / security I can certainly see them pushing a update to it, especially if they find a vulnerability. Some small percentage may brick the system due to a memory failure even if the update is good - which most often happens during a write cycle.
Not saying its going to be common, but saying its not possible or even likely for some small sample is foolish. Do you trust Mary Barra or Jim Farley to make good decisions on your behalf?
