API and ISLAC Oil Burning in Cars

[Linctex]

OK, I'm curious.....

Q: If it is the ring groove drain holes and not the valve seals:
Can you pull the plugs, turn the engine until all 4 are mid-height, and pour 100ml of Berryman's B-12 into each cyl and let it soak? (Then follow up with 100ml of SeaFoam in each one!)

Will that help anything?
It's the first thing I'd try.

 

[turboseize]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
API SN is ILSAC GF-5 without the Sequence VID fuel economy test, the Gelation Index and silly stuff like the Phosphorus Volatility restriction.

Appreciate the detail in your post. I'm... shall we say, "puzzled" by the Group 1 oil advice, but overall it's nice to have serious propositions on the table to discuss.



As the engine oil world (and especially the US) has both moved away from basic Group I base oils to Group II & III's, and moved to lighter engine oil grades (which contain less heavy base oil) the ability of the oil to solublise 'stuff' has decreased. It's all to do with the de-aromatisation of the base oil and the fact that aromatics content generally increases with heaviness .

TBH, for a fresh oil, this matters not a jot (unless maybe you're trying to get a particularly insoluble additive into something like a GTL based 0W20). However as you load up the oil with grot, especially grot that really shouldn't be there in the first place (such as partially burnt engine oil) then it becomes extremely important. Once the solubility limit is reached, stuff will plop out on the handiest, nearest metal surface. Traditional sludge type oxidation products dump out on the sump tray as the oil cools down. Burnt oil insolubles dump out on the sides of the piston. By running an oil based on heavy Group I (something like AP/E Core 600SN or Shell HVI 650BS), you're using an oil that, whilst not good from an oxidation point of view, has a HUGE solvency reserve. Of course its far easy to keep something in solution before it plops out. Getting something back in solution, once it's out, is far more tricky, which is why trying to clean up piston deposits is so difficult. But in theory, given infinite time, it should/might go back in...



So the often cited advice "take the cheapest dino you can find and change frequently" concerning sludged-up engines does indeed hold some value?

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: Linctex
OK, I'm curious.....

Q: If it is the ring groove drain holes and not the valve seals:
Can you pull the plugs, turn the engine until all 4 are mid-height, and pour 100ml of Berryman's B-12 into each cyl and let it soak? (Then follow up with 100ml of SeaFoam in each one!)

Will that help anything?
It's the first thing I'd try.



You can do that and yes it might work.

However last year I was trying to help a BITOG member whose BMW was using a lot of oil. A stuck oil control ring (or rings) were suspected. He had tried soaking the cylinders with a proprietary cleaner but with mixed results.

He picked up on my comments about heavy Group I's and ran the engine on a 20W50 for a couple of months. I can't say the 20W50 100% fixed his problems because he also did another soak after the 20W50 was drained and he make some adjustments to his crankcase vacuum. In the end his oil consumption markedly dropped and he was a happy bunny!

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: turboseize
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
API SN is ILSAC GF-5 without the Sequence VID fuel economy test, the Gelation Index and silly stuff like the Phosphorus Volatility restriction.

Appreciate the detail in your post. I'm... shall we say, "puzzled" by the Group 1 oil advice, but overall it's nice to have serious propositions on the table to discuss.



As the engine oil world (and especially the US) has both moved away from basic Group I base oils to Group II & III's, and moved to lighter engine oil grades (which contain less heavy base oil) the ability of the oil to solublise 'stuff' has decreased. It's all to do with the de-aromatisation of the base oil and the fact that aromatics content generally increases with heaviness .

TBH, for a fresh oil, this matters not a jot (unless maybe you're trying to get a particularly insoluble additive into something like a GTL based 0W20). However as you load up the oil with grot, especially grot that really shouldn't be there in the first place (such as partially burnt engine oil) then it becomes extremely important. Once the solubility limit is reached, stuff will plop out on the handiest, nearest metal surface. Traditional sludge type oxidation products dump out on the sump tray as the oil cools down. Burnt oil insolubles dump out on the sides of the piston. By running an oil based on heavy Group I (something like AP/E Core 600SN or Shell HVI 650BS), you're using an oil that, whilst not good from an oxidation point of view, has a HUGE solvency reserve. Of course its far easy to keep something in solution before it plops out. Getting something back in solution, once it's out, is far more tricky, which is why trying to clean up piston deposits is so difficult. But in theory, given infinite time, it should/might go back in...



So the often cited advice "take the cheapest dino you can find and change frequently" concerning sludged-up engines does indeed hold some value?



This isn't a fix for traditional sludge as such. Using low grade heavy Group I oils is really only a potential fix for piston ring stick (but with no guarantees).

However in the past, I've run heavy Group I based oils on industry standard engine tests and specifically in terms of piston cleanliness, they knock some of the clever-clever light synthetics into a cocked hat!

 

[pdawg7]

To clarify some things here.
The car is a 2007 its got 70,000kms on the clock (about 40k miles) Its only started to consume oil on towards the end of the last service interval I don't know what the dealer used they told me it was Edge 0w-30.
I've done 2 oil changes in 18 months since I bought it, I've used Valvoline Syn Power 5w-40 an API SN.

Its consuming somewhere in the region of 1L per 2000-3000kms.
The TSB and extended warranty has not been introduced in NZ. I've queried this with Toyota NZ and they don't want to know about it. The majority of these engines in NZ are 2nd hand [censored] Imports. I dont have the tools or space to do a tear down myself. I recon it will cost the bones of $2k here to do. The car is worth about $10k.

I'm in the process of trying AutoRX to clear it as I've read some very positive stuff.

Its interesting to hear so many people here recommend a heavier weight oil, Advice I've received up to now is to go to as thin an oil as possible as it has the best chance of getting through the partially blocked passages.

From what I've read on this site, am I correct in thinking that a dino oil will have better solvent like properties than the newer synthetics? I'm thinking, will a thin dino give me the best chance at getting into the blocked piston holes and then keep them clear?

 

[dblshock]

if the temps are right the T4 Mobil 1 10/40 and TCW-3 oil in the fuel bet you'd have improvement after 30k.

 

[dblshock]

2azfe is a good motor, mine has been totally reliable not going back to the dealer since day 1 other than a floor mat buckle safety recall. Been steady TCW-3 for 60k and never need to add oil, even did a 15k OCI without additional oil last year.

 

[pdawg7]

Please excuse my ignorance, what is TCW-3? that's 2 stoke oil right? What ratio do you add it in? Whats the logic behind using it? I would have thought that might screw up the emissions systems no? Then again, burning engine oil is probably worse...

Thanks

 

[dblshock]

I pass an emission test every year, mix is 640:1 here thats 1 oz. to 5 gal. you'll have to do the metric equation to that ratio. my 2azfe certainly thrives at 89k

 

[B320i]

Originally Posted By: SR5

Those old school API SG 20W50 mineral oils are not as common now days.

Castrol GTX 20W50 is API SN and Shell Helix HX3 20W50 is API SL.

Joe, would you go those 20W50's or would you go the API SN - GTX 15W40 / Shell HX5 15W40 ?

I assume they are all pretty much Group 2 now days.

I imagine IGA Supermarkets exist in New Zealand, and are indeed the same corporation as in Australia (i.e. Owned by / Stocked by Metcash).
Anyway, its a fair bet if you walk into an IGA you'll see both IGA "Signature Brand" 20w50 along with Black&Gold 20w50, both rated as API SG, and presumably of dubious origins. I would love to see a datasheet or VOA/UOA just to see how [censored] they are or aren not!

Not sure about Coles or Woolies, but I reckon theres a fighting chance they have their own in-house brands of 20w50 SG oil

The discussion of using Group I oils as a means of dissolving the deposits found in piston rings is a very interesting one. I'm tempted to further research this (or start a thread). SonOfJoe, if you'll allow me to derail the thread briefly with these queries:
- Would a Group I 20w50 (or presumably other products like Valvoline's EngineArmour 15w40 I discussed recently) perform similarly with varnish deposits, and/or accumulation within hydraulic lifters?
- (This bit is already partially answered) - Do these Group I lubricants have any effect on particularly nasty sludge deposits you might find on the top end of a neglected engine?

 

[Silk]

IGA disapeared in NZ in the '70's. Down here, a car with problems is almost worthless, I've seen good cars sold for scrap just for a leaking water pump. Valve seals, headgaskets, ring jobs are now obsolete, we just drop another engine in. The market is flooded with UJDI, his sensored word is the short version of Japanese, we can't say it here.

We have Supercheap and Repco here, where all the good oils are on special at any one time. IGA would probably be compared to The Warehouse where all oils are cheap, some of them good, others not so. Local brewer Ageis Oils are sold there, they make good oils and are approachable, they could advise on what is suitable. My daughter has an oil burner, it's always just showing on the dipstick when she comes down here, and I get to change her oil when she's at least double her oil change mileage - I've used 20w-50's, GTX and a no name, but I've found an HDEO 15W-40 works best. I did a headgasket 2 or 3 years ago (I get parts trade, and labour is a bottle of wild turkey) so the valve seals are good, and hone marks still on the bore.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: dblshock
I pass an emission test every year, mix is 640:1 here thats 1 oz. to 5 gal. you'll have to do the metric equation to that ratio. my 2azfe certainly thrives at 89k


640:1 in metric is still 640:1

 

[dblshock]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: dblshock
I pass an emission test every year, mix is 640:1 here thats 1 oz. to 5 gal. you'll have to do the metric equation to that ratio. my 2azfe certainly thrives at 89k


640:1 in metric is still 640:1

course it is but like 1 ml. to 4l, eh?

 

[Jetronic]

4000 ml/640 = 6.25 ml per litre

100 ml to 64 litre
50ml to 32 litre.

if you get an amount of fuel in between thos two like 50 litres, it's about 80 ml

 

[pdawg7]

I get how ratios work chaps, thanks!

What does 2stroke oil do in this situation? Whats your logic?
Surely it would smoke and cause carbon build up in the cylinders, valves, manifolds, and exhaust system? And ultimately lead to more problems than it currently has.

 

[dblshock]

Originally Posted By: pdawg7
I get how ratios work chaps, thanks!

What does 2stroke oil do in this situation? Whats your logic?
Surely it would smoke and cause carbon build up in the cylinders, valves, manifolds, and exhaust system? And ultimately lead to more problems than it currently has.


actually no, none of that, it's a powerful cleaner and lube, watch this and draw your conclusions on how it contacts critical components.

cumbustion animation