Don't mean to get in the middle of anything guys but I have a question... If this psi thing is such a big deal then why are there 1000's of subi's with 200k+ that have seen nothing but the cheapest of oil filters?
Anyone using Purolator on Subaru?
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Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
You shouldn't get involved in technical discussions if you can't stand someone pointing out the technical facts. I have seen no back up material from you explaining in detail on why a filter is more restrictive than an engine. I guess you won't believe it until a few others chime in.
You know that goes both ways here.
Quote:
Answer this question. An oil pump puts out 80 PSI. How can you see 75 psi oil pressure at the inlet to the engine (ie, pressure gauge between filter and engine), and only a 5 psi pressure drop across the filter on that engine when there is the same exact oil volume going through both? What do you think is causing the PSID across each (5 PSID across the filter, and 75 PSID across the engine)?
My point is that if you has 80 psi of cold oil pressure between the filter and pump you would likely have 30 psi or greater drop across the filter unless it bypassed. I dount you would only see 5 psi drop even with hot oil at 80 psi. I know where you are going with this, that the engine is more "restrictive" than the filter. But when I was talking about engine restriction I was talking about in the narrow sense that there would be little oil pressure drop at any point these oiled engine parts.
Quote:
Forget about the oil pickup and the gallery to the filter. Pretend they don't even exist ... I've never even considered them. Instead, assume that the passage between the pump outlet and filter inlet is zero resistance, and at the same pressure as the pump outlet. The filter/engine series circuit will only flow what the pumps pressure will push through it. If the oil if very thick, then the flow will be small. How small? ... as I said earlier, it depends on many factors.
If the flow was small at the pump to filter line then the pressure would be low.
Quote:
No, my position is that with cold oil the volume that actually goes to the filter/engine is much much lower at the same max pump pressure. The same volume comes out of the pump (positive displacement), but the volume split between what goes to the filter/engine vs what goes back to the sump all depends on those factors I listed above. And if the filter goes into bypass mode or not again depends on design factors of that specific oil filter.
Quote:
I've said about all I can say on this subject. If you don't want to listen or believe then that's fine ... I'm done. Maybe if you hang out here for a while you will understand it better. Sometimes it takes awhile for this stuff to “sink in”.
If there's pressure between the pump and the filter then the potential flow couldn't be so low as you are saying. It's a fixed orifice size so pressure would drop if flow potential actually was low. The filter would have to be the restriction in this scenario, Remove the filter and there would have to be substantial flow at 80 psi. Anyway I'm not going to debate this anymore it's getting to be a waste of time.
You shouldn't get involved in technical discussions if you can't stand someone pointing out the technical facts. I have seen no back up material from you explaining in detail on why a filter is more restrictive than an engine. I guess you won't believe it until a few others chime in.
You know that goes both ways here.
Quote:
Answer this question. An oil pump puts out 80 PSI. How can you see 75 psi oil pressure at the inlet to the engine (ie, pressure gauge between filter and engine), and only a 5 psi pressure drop across the filter on that engine when there is the same exact oil volume going through both? What do you think is causing the PSID across each (5 PSID across the filter, and 75 PSID across the engine)?
My point is that if you has 80 psi of cold oil pressure between the filter and pump you would likely have 30 psi or greater drop across the filter unless it bypassed. I dount you would only see 5 psi drop even with hot oil at 80 psi. I know where you are going with this, that the engine is more "restrictive" than the filter. But when I was talking about engine restriction I was talking about in the narrow sense that there would be little oil pressure drop at any point these oiled engine parts.
Quote:
Forget about the oil pickup and the gallery to the filter. Pretend they don't even exist ... I've never even considered them. Instead, assume that the passage between the pump outlet and filter inlet is zero resistance, and at the same pressure as the pump outlet. The filter/engine series circuit will only flow what the pumps pressure will push through it. If the oil if very thick, then the flow will be small. How small? ... as I said earlier, it depends on many factors.
If the flow was small at the pump to filter line then the pressure would be low.
Quote:
No, my position is that with cold oil the volume that actually goes to the filter/engine is much much lower at the same max pump pressure. The same volume comes out of the pump (positive displacement), but the volume split between what goes to the filter/engine vs what goes back to the sump all depends on those factors I listed above. And if the filter goes into bypass mode or not again depends on design factors of that specific oil filter.
Quote:
I've said about all I can say on this subject. If you don't want to listen or believe then that's fine ... I'm done. Maybe if you hang out here for a while you will understand it better. Sometimes it takes awhile for this stuff to “sink in”.
If there's pressure between the pump and the filter then the potential flow couldn't be so low as you are saying. It's a fixed orifice size so pressure would drop if flow potential actually was low. The filter would have to be the restriction in this scenario, Remove the filter and there would have to be substantial flow at 80 psi. Anyway I'm not going to debate this anymore it's getting to be a waste of time.
Originally Posted By: sw99
Don't mean to get in the middle of anything guys but I have a question... If this psi thing is such a big deal then why are there 1000's of subi's with 200k+ that have seen nothing but the cheapest of oil filters?
This was my original assertion that even a filter with a lower bypass than the Subaru OEM might be as good or better. I was of the position that most applications filters bypass at least some in cold start anyway. Then SupraBursa gets me into a debate and won't let it end.
Don't mean to get in the middle of anything guys but I have a question... If this psi thing is such a big deal then why are there 1000's of subi's with 200k+ that have seen nothing but the cheapest of oil filters?
This was my original assertion that even a filter with a lower bypass than the Subaru OEM might be as good or better. I was of the position that most applications filters bypass at least some in cold start anyway. Then SupraBursa gets me into a debate and won't let it end.
I just know what I have personally seen. My buddy has 330K on his 93' and has used nothing but FRAM's...
With a lack of doom from the orange can, how important can a filter be?
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
You shouldn't get involved in technical discussions if you can't stand someone pointing out the technical facts. I have seen no back up material from you explaining in detail on why a filter is more restrictive than an engine. I guess you won't believe it until a few others chime in.
You know that goes both ways here.
I’ve given examples more than once trying to show why/how the engine is more restrictive to flow than the filter, but you must have skimmed over the details. There needs to be comprehension to get the point.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Answer this question. An oil pump puts out 80 PSI. How can you see 75 psi oil pressure at the inlet to the engine (ie, pressure gauge between filter and engine), and only a 5 psi pressure drop across the filter on that engine when there is the same exact oil volume going through both? What do you think is causing the PSID across each (5 PSID across the filter, and 75 PSID across the engine)?
My point is that if you has 80 psi of cold oil pressure between the filter and pump you would likely have 30 psi or greater drop across the filter unless it bypassed. I dount you would only see 5 psi drop even with hot oil at 80 psi. I know where you are going with this, that the engine is more "restrictive" than the filter. But when I was talking about engine restriction I was talking about in the narrow sense that there would be little oil pressure drop at any point these oiled engine parts.
How could you have a 30 PSID across the filter when the bypass is set to 8 or 10 PSI? Theoretically, the PSID across the filter would/should hold constant near the bypass valve setting if the valve is working correctly.
As far as the 5 PSID with hot oil … I guess you missed my thread (do a search if interested) where Purolator actually bench tested a PureONE filter with hot oil and at 18 GPM it only produced 5 ~ 6 PSID.
Yes, the engine is always more restrictive than the filter. What kind of engine pressure do you think it would take to push 18 GPM through it. Like I said a while back, probably 150+ PSI. Sounds like you are changing your story about the engine flow restriction – your quote: “I was talking about in the narrow sense that there would be little oil pressure drop at any point these oiled engine parts.” Not sure what you mean there.
Here’s an idea … you should start a new thread and ask members if they think the engine or the filter is more restrictive to flow, since nobody will dare chime in here. I know what the answer will be.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Forget about the oil pickup and the gallery to the filter. Pretend they don't even exist ... I've never even considered them. Instead, assume that the passage between the pump outlet and filter inlet is zero resistance, and at the same pressure as the pump outlet. The filter/engine series circuit will only flow what the pumps pressure will push through it. If the oil if very thick, then the flow will be small. How small? ... as I said earlier, it depends on many factors.
If the flow was small at the pump to filter line then the pressure would be low.
Yeah, I know and that’s what I’ve been trying to get across here. When I say: “flow to the filter/engine” I mean the flow that was NOT diverted back to the sump – but literally the actual flow that goes through the filter/engine circuit.
The total flow out of the pump = flow to the filter/engine + flow back to the sump (that's a C=A+B equation). Whatever doesn’t go to the sump goes to the filter/engine. Imagine you are looking at the point in the system right before the oil goes into the filter. The flow that was diverted to the sump is NOT part of that volume because the pressure relief valve is upstream of the filter.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
No, my position is that with cold oil the volume that actually goes to the filter/engine is much much lower at the same max pump pressure. The same volume comes out of the pump (positive displacement), but the volume split between what goes to the filter/engine vs what goes back to the sump all depends on those factors I listed above. And if the filter goes into bypass mode or not again depends on design factors of that specific oil filter.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
I've said about all I can say on this subject. If you don't want to listen or believe then that's fine ... I'm done. Maybe if you hang out here for a while you will understand it better. Sometimes it takes awhile for this stuff to “sink in”.
If there's pressure between the pump and the filter then the potential flow couldn't be so low as you are saying. It's a fixed orifice size so pressure would drop if flow potential actually was low. The filter would have to be the restriction in this scenario, Remove the filter and there would have to be substantial flow at 80 psi. Anyway I'm not going to debate this anymore it's getting to be a waste of time.
Disagree … the flow could be very small based on all the factors I’ve talked about previously. It all depends on what the total restriction of the filter/engine circuit is and the pumps output pressure (its assumed the pump can deliver enough volume at all times). With a fixed orifice (ie, fixed flow resistance), what do you think happens to the flow rate going through a fixed orifice if the pressure is held constant while the viscosity of the oil is increased? - Ans: the flow decreases. The only time “pressure would drop if flow potential was low" (ie, flow decreased) is if the viscosity was held constant.
No, again the engine is the main restriction in the system -- please ask the question with a new thread so you can get verification from others since you won’t believe me.
You can remove the filter from and engine and the flow rate and engine pressure would only change slightly due to the filter being gone.
Yeah ... becoming a waste of my time too. I can try to explain this stuff only so many ways.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
You shouldn't get involved in technical discussions if you can't stand someone pointing out the technical facts. I have seen no back up material from you explaining in detail on why a filter is more restrictive than an engine. I guess you won't believe it until a few others chime in.
You know that goes both ways here.
I’ve given examples more than once trying to show why/how the engine is more restrictive to flow than the filter, but you must have skimmed over the details. There needs to be comprehension to get the point.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Answer this question. An oil pump puts out 80 PSI. How can you see 75 psi oil pressure at the inlet to the engine (ie, pressure gauge between filter and engine), and only a 5 psi pressure drop across the filter on that engine when there is the same exact oil volume going through both? What do you think is causing the PSID across each (5 PSID across the filter, and 75 PSID across the engine)?
My point is that if you has 80 psi of cold oil pressure between the filter and pump you would likely have 30 psi or greater drop across the filter unless it bypassed. I dount you would only see 5 psi drop even with hot oil at 80 psi. I know where you are going with this, that the engine is more "restrictive" than the filter. But when I was talking about engine restriction I was talking about in the narrow sense that there would be little oil pressure drop at any point these oiled engine parts.
How could you have a 30 PSID across the filter when the bypass is set to 8 or 10 PSI? Theoretically, the PSID across the filter would/should hold constant near the bypass valve setting if the valve is working correctly.
As far as the 5 PSID with hot oil … I guess you missed my thread (do a search if interested) where Purolator actually bench tested a PureONE filter with hot oil and at 18 GPM it only produced 5 ~ 6 PSID.
Yes, the engine is always more restrictive than the filter. What kind of engine pressure do you think it would take to push 18 GPM through it. Like I said a while back, probably 150+ PSI. Sounds like you are changing your story about the engine flow restriction – your quote: “I was talking about in the narrow sense that there would be little oil pressure drop at any point these oiled engine parts.” Not sure what you mean there.
Here’s an idea … you should start a new thread and ask members if they think the engine or the filter is more restrictive to flow, since nobody will dare chime in here. I know what the answer will be.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Forget about the oil pickup and the gallery to the filter. Pretend they don't even exist ... I've never even considered them. Instead, assume that the passage between the pump outlet and filter inlet is zero resistance, and at the same pressure as the pump outlet. The filter/engine series circuit will only flow what the pumps pressure will push through it. If the oil if very thick, then the flow will be small. How small? ... as I said earlier, it depends on many factors.
If the flow was small at the pump to filter line then the pressure would be low.
Yeah, I know and that’s what I’ve been trying to get across here. When I say: “flow to the filter/engine” I mean the flow that was NOT diverted back to the sump – but literally the actual flow that goes through the filter/engine circuit.
The total flow out of the pump = flow to the filter/engine + flow back to the sump (that's a C=A+B equation). Whatever doesn’t go to the sump goes to the filter/engine. Imagine you are looking at the point in the system right before the oil goes into the filter. The flow that was diverted to the sump is NOT part of that volume because the pressure relief valve is upstream of the filter.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
No, my position is that with cold oil the volume that actually goes to the filter/engine is much much lower at the same max pump pressure. The same volume comes out of the pump (positive displacement), but the volume split between what goes to the filter/engine vs what goes back to the sump all depends on those factors I listed above. And if the filter goes into bypass mode or not again depends on design factors of that specific oil filter.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
I've said about all I can say on this subject. If you don't want to listen or believe then that's fine ... I'm done. Maybe if you hang out here for a while you will understand it better. Sometimes it takes awhile for this stuff to “sink in”.
If there's pressure between the pump and the filter then the potential flow couldn't be so low as you are saying. It's a fixed orifice size so pressure would drop if flow potential actually was low. The filter would have to be the restriction in this scenario, Remove the filter and there would have to be substantial flow at 80 psi. Anyway I'm not going to debate this anymore it's getting to be a waste of time.
Disagree … the flow could be very small based on all the factors I’ve talked about previously. It all depends on what the total restriction of the filter/engine circuit is and the pumps output pressure (its assumed the pump can deliver enough volume at all times). With a fixed orifice (ie, fixed flow resistance), what do you think happens to the flow rate going through a fixed orifice if the pressure is held constant while the viscosity of the oil is increased? - Ans: the flow decreases. The only time “pressure would drop if flow potential was low" (ie, flow decreased) is if the viscosity was held constant.
No, again the engine is the main restriction in the system -- please ask the question with a new thread so you can get verification from others since you won’t believe me.
You can remove the filter from and engine and the flow rate and engine pressure would only change slightly due to the filter being gone.
Yeah ... becoming a waste of my time too. I can try to explain this stuff only so many ways.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: sw99
Don't mean to get in the middle of anything guys but I have a question... If this psi thing is such a big deal then why are there 1000's of subi's with 200k+ that have seen nothing but the cheapest of oil filters?
This was my original assertion that even a filter with a lower bypass than the Subaru OEM might be as good or better. I was of the position that most applications filters bypass at least some in cold start anyway. Then SupraBursa gets me into a debate and won't let it end.
Takes two to conduct a debate.
I said a long time ago in this thread (page 2 near the top) that after seeing the flow vs PSID data from Purolator on the PureONE that it looks like there is no real danger of going into bypass with hot oil if used on a 12 GPM Subaru engine. Do people actually read these threads completely?
The theory at one time was that the Subaru OEM spec of a 23 PSI bypass valve setting was to ensure the filter didn't go into bypass mode with hot oil at max engine RPM (guys who race these cars).
Since then, we have some real test data on a PureONE filter and it looks like they flow very well, and since their bypass setting is typically 14 ~ 16 PSI they would work fine for this high volume application. Can't really say for other filter brands, as I've seen no real flow vs. PSID test data for them.
Now bypass in cold conditions ... that's another story.
Originally Posted By: sw99
Don't mean to get in the middle of anything guys but I have a question... If this psi thing is such a big deal then why are there 1000's of subi's with 200k+ that have seen nothing but the cheapest of oil filters?
This was my original assertion that even a filter with a lower bypass than the Subaru OEM might be as good or better. I was of the position that most applications filters bypass at least some in cold start anyway. Then SupraBursa gets me into a debate and won't let it end.
Takes two to conduct a debate.
I said a long time ago in this thread (page 2 near the top) that after seeing the flow vs PSID data from Purolator on the PureONE that it looks like there is no real danger of going into bypass with hot oil if used on a 12 GPM Subaru engine. Do people actually read these threads completely?
The theory at one time was that the Subaru OEM spec of a 23 PSI bypass valve setting was to ensure the filter didn't go into bypass mode with hot oil at max engine RPM (guys who race these cars).
Since then, we have some real test data on a PureONE filter and it looks like they flow very well, and since their bypass setting is typically 14 ~ 16 PSI they would work fine for this high volume application. Can't really say for other filter brands, as I've seen no real flow vs. PSID test data for them.
Now bypass in cold conditions ... that's another story.
Originally Posted By: sw99
I just know what I have personally seen. My buddy has 330K on his 93' and has used nothing but FRAM's...
What kind of max oil pump pressure and flow volume does the 93 engine have? This was the main concern with some of the newer turbo engines ... they had pretty high pressure & flow specs.
I just know what I have personally seen. My buddy has 330K on his 93' and has used nothing but FRAM's...
What kind of max oil pump pressure and flow volume does the 93 engine have? This was the main concern with some of the newer turbo engines ... they had pretty high pressure & flow specs.
So I was just reading through "Drive", a Subaru magazine I get since I am registered with them, and they spotlighted their Honeywell oil filter. It's odd they don't mention the Forester. This is the Summer 2009 issue. I thought maybe someone else would like to see it so here it is:
Whoever wrote (or edited) that magazine article info on the filter doesn't know what he's talking about.
Bullet #2 talks about the bypass valve, and says: "The value's torque setting was tuned specifically for Subaru engines."
Is there a muffler bearing in there somewhere.
I think what they meant was: "The valve's bypass setting was specifically tuned for the Subaru engines."
I'm assuming the bypass valve is set to 23 PSI on these filters?
Bullet #2 talks about the bypass valve, and says: "The value's torque setting was tuned specifically for Subaru engines."
I think what they meant was: "The valve's bypass setting was specifically tuned for the Subaru engines."
I'm assuming the bypass valve is set to 23 PSI on these filters?
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
I'm assuming the bypass valve is set to 23 PSI on these filters?
I wish I knew. There was a guy on another forum that said he tested the old black Tokyo Roki filter to have a bypass valve that opened at about 18 psi and the blue Honeywell opened at 23 psi. Now how he "tested" this I have no idea. It's tough for me to take random information from the internet (with no sources, references, or explainations of testing procedures) as hard fact. It would be nice to actually see a technical publication or email from Subaru regarding this; however, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. It's just good-to-know info.
I'm assuming the bypass valve is set to 23 PSI on these filters?
I wish I knew. There was a guy on another forum that said he tested the old black Tokyo Roki filter to have a bypass valve that opened at about 18 psi and the blue Honeywell opened at 23 psi. Now how he "tested" this I have no idea. It's tough for me to take random information from the internet (with no sources, references, or explainations of testing procedures) as hard fact. It would be nice to actually see a technical publication or email from Subaru regarding this; however, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. It's just good-to-know info.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
I’ve given examples more than once trying to show why/how the engine is more restrictive to flow than the filter, but you must have skimmed over the details. There needs to be comprehension to get the point.
You are not comprehending what I meant. What I said was that I think a filter is more restrictive to cold oil than the galleys that feed oil to bearings and other lubricated parts. Sure if you take the engine's oiling system as a whole I'd agree that engine is more restrictive than the filter especially to hot oil, but I don't see the engine as a "restriction" since the engines lubricated parts are the whole reason for the oiling system. In other words cold oil can flow to the parts with less restriction than a filter may with cold oil. How many times are you going to say my argument is that, Tthe engine is less restrictive than the filter". That's a strawman.
Quote:
How could you have a 30 PSID across the filter when the bypass is set to 8 or 10 PSI? Theoretically, the PSID across the filter would/should hold constant near the bypass valve setting if the valve is working correctly.
That's been my whole point that the filter must bypass cold oil because of the pressure differential. That's been my point al along.
Quote:
As far as the 5 PSID with hot oil … I guess you missed my thread (do a search if interested) where Purolator actually bench tested a PureONE filter with hot oil and at 18 GPM it only produced 5 ~ 6 PSID.
But this is with hot oil. I was never talking about hot oil. You yourself posted a chart that with cold oil the filters were at 5 PSID at 1-2 GPM. Now going back to your, "You said the engine was less restrictive" mantra, as I said above, my point was that I doubted that the engine's galleys would cause more or as much pressure drop than that (the filter)to cold oil at the parts like bearings that need oil pressure.
Quote:
Yes, the engine is always more restrictive than the filter. What kind of engine pressure do you think it would take to push 18 GPM through it. Like I said a while back, probably 150+ PSI. Sounds like you are changing your story about the engine flow restriction – your quote: “I was talking about in the narrow sense that there would be little oil pressure drop at any point these oiled engine parts.” Not sure what you mean there.
Again you keep focusing on hot oil and volume. I've been talking about cold oil and pressure to the lubricated parts. I never changed my story, you just didn't comprehend what I meant.
Quote:
Here’s an idea … you should start a new thread and ask members if they think the engine or the filter is more restrictive to flow, since nobody will dare chime in here. I know what the answer will be.
I have no interest in asking a strawman question you created and are trying to put in my mouth.
Quote:
Yeah, I know and that’s what I’ve been trying to get across here. When I say: “flow to the filter/engine” I mean the flow that was NOT diverted back to the sump – but literally the actual flow that goes through the filter/engine circuit.
The total flow out of the pump = flow to the filter/engine + flow back to the sump (that's a C=A+B equation). Whatever doesn’t go to the sump goes to the filter/engine. Imagine you are looking at the point in the system right before the oil goes into the filter. The flow that was diverted to the sump is NOT part of that volume because the pressure relief valve is upstream of the filter.
See you keep focusing on oil volume and oil pump relief when I've been focusing on oil filter restrction and filter bypassing cold oil.
I’ve given examples more than once trying to show why/how the engine is more restrictive to flow than the filter, but you must have skimmed over the details. There needs to be comprehension to get the point.
You are not comprehending what I meant. What I said was that I think a filter is more restrictive to cold oil than the galleys that feed oil to bearings and other lubricated parts. Sure if you take the engine's oiling system as a whole I'd agree that engine is more restrictive than the filter especially to hot oil, but I don't see the engine as a "restriction" since the engines lubricated parts are the whole reason for the oiling system. In other words cold oil can flow to the parts with less restriction than a filter may with cold oil. How many times are you going to say my argument is that, Tthe engine is less restrictive than the filter". That's a strawman.
Quote:
How could you have a 30 PSID across the filter when the bypass is set to 8 or 10 PSI? Theoretically, the PSID across the filter would/should hold constant near the bypass valve setting if the valve is working correctly.
That's been my whole point that the filter must bypass cold oil because of the pressure differential. That's been my point al along.
Quote:
As far as the 5 PSID with hot oil … I guess you missed my thread (do a search if interested) where Purolator actually bench tested a PureONE filter with hot oil and at 18 GPM it only produced 5 ~ 6 PSID.
But this is with hot oil. I was never talking about hot oil. You yourself posted a chart that with cold oil the filters were at 5 PSID at 1-2 GPM. Now going back to your, "You said the engine was less restrictive" mantra, as I said above, my point was that I doubted that the engine's galleys would cause more or as much pressure drop than that (the filter)to cold oil at the parts like bearings that need oil pressure.
Quote:
Yes, the engine is always more restrictive than the filter. What kind of engine pressure do you think it would take to push 18 GPM through it. Like I said a while back, probably 150+ PSI. Sounds like you are changing your story about the engine flow restriction – your quote: “I was talking about in the narrow sense that there would be little oil pressure drop at any point these oiled engine parts.” Not sure what you mean there.
Again you keep focusing on hot oil and volume. I've been talking about cold oil and pressure to the lubricated parts. I never changed my story, you just didn't comprehend what I meant.
Quote:
Here’s an idea … you should start a new thread and ask members if they think the engine or the filter is more restrictive to flow, since nobody will dare chime in here. I know what the answer will be.
I have no interest in asking a strawman question you created and are trying to put in my mouth.
Quote:
Yeah, I know and that’s what I’ve been trying to get across here. When I say: “flow to the filter/engine” I mean the flow that was NOT diverted back to the sump – but literally the actual flow that goes through the filter/engine circuit.
The total flow out of the pump = flow to the filter/engine + flow back to the sump (that's a C=A+B equation). Whatever doesn’t go to the sump goes to the filter/engine. Imagine you are looking at the point in the system right before the oil goes into the filter. The flow that was diverted to the sump is NOT part of that volume because the pressure relief valve is upstream of the filter.
See you keep focusing on oil volume and oil pump relief when I've been focusing on oil filter restrction and filter bypassing cold oil.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
I’ve given examples more than once trying to show why/how the engine is more restrictive to flow than the filter, but you must have skimmed over the details. There needs to be comprehension to get the point.
You are not comprehending what I meant. What I said was that I think a filter is more restrictive to cold oil than the galleys that feed oil to bearings and other lubricated parts. Sure if you take the engine's oiling system as a whole I'd agree that engine is more restrictive than the filter especially to hot oil, but I don't see the engine as a "restriction" since the engines lubricated parts are the whole reason for the oiling system.
That doesn’t really make much sense. Who cares if the oil galleries are not restrictive. Do you actually know what makes an engine restrictive to oil flow? … it’s not the galleries. And why would the engine be more restrictive “especially to hot oil”? Its restrictive to hot and cold oil. It’s basically a fixed restriction … so it restricts the flow relative to the viscosity going through it. The more we debate, the more I realize you don’t understand the technical aspects of the system as a whole. Just stating a fact.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
In other words cold oil can flow to the parts with less restriction than a filter may with cold oil. How many times are you going to say my argument is that, The engine is less restrictive than the filter". That's a strawman.
First sentence is not true. If a filter is a fixed flow resistor, and the engine is a fixed flow resistor, then why would one become less restrictive based on the oil temperature than the other one? It makes zero sense. Your arguments are a “smokeman” – thinner than a "strawman".
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
How could you have a 30 PSID across the filter when the bypass is set to 8 or 10 PSI? Theoretically, the PSID across the filter would/should hold constant near the bypass valve setting if the valve is working correctly.
That's been my whole point that the filter must bypass cold oil because of the pressure differential. That's been my point all along.
True ONLY if the PSID is greater than the bypass valve setting. We are going full circle again. Remember all the factors that will determine the filter's PSID?
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
As far as the 5 PSID with hot oil … I guess you missed my thread (do a search if interested) where Purolator actually bench tested a PureONE filter with hot oil and at 18 GPM it only produced 5 ~ 6 PSID.
But this is with hot oil. I was never talking about hot oil. You yourself posted a chart that with cold oil the filters were at 5 PSID at 1-2 GPM. Now going back to your, "You said the engine was less restrictive" mantra, as I said above, my point was that I doubted that the engine's galleys would cause more or as much pressure drop than that (the filter) to cold oil at the parts like bearings that need oil pressure.
Here’s your quote below I was responding to, that you conveniently didn’t show. Note the part about HOT oil. Do you believe the test data right from the Sr. Engineer at Purolator? That data showed how small the filter PSID was with 18 GPM of hot oil flow - namely 5 PSID.
Quote:
My point is that if you has 80 psi of cold oil pressure between the filter and pump you would likely have 30 psi or greater drop across the filter unless it bypassed. I dount you would only see 5 psi drop even with hot oil at 80 psi.
Nobody cares about the galleries in the engine! The galleries are relatively large, and basically invisible as a cause of engine oil flow restriction. Engine restriction is basically ALL due to tight bearing clearances that the oil is forced through. Ever hear of an engine losing oil pressure because the bearings are shot?
This “gallery” side track talk is something you’ve started to try and cover up the fact that you were really talking about the engine as a whole when talking about filter vs. engine restriction. There were many times you plain flat out said "the filter is more restrictive than the engine" without qualifying the statement with the “galleries”. Sorry, I don’t buy it … losing traction quickly – more smokemen appearing.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Yes, the engine is always more restrictive than the filter. What kind of engine pressure do you think it would take to push 18 GPM through it. Like I said a while back, probably 150+ PSI. Sounds like you are changing your story about the engine flow restriction – your quote: “I was talking about in the narrow sense that there would be little oil pressure drop at any point these oiled engine parts.” Not sure what you mean there.
Again you keep focusing on hot oil and volume. I've been talking about cold oil and pressure to the lubricated parts. I never changed my story, you just didn't comprehend what I meant.
I’ve also focused on cold oil and volume and pressure. Volume and pressure are ALWAYS a factor regardless of the oil temperature/viscosity. As I said above, the restriction in the engine is due to the tight bearing clearances in the crank, rods and camshaft(s). The relative restriction ratio of the filter/engine basically doesn’t change due to oil temperature or flow volume. They both rise and fall with the same basic fixed ratio to each other.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Here’s an idea … you should start a new thread and ask members if they think the engine or the filter is more restrictive to flow, since nobody will dare chime in here. I know what the answer will be.
I have no interest in asking a strawman question you created and are trying to put in my mouth.
You should to prove to yourself what the real story is and get some real validation of your theory since I can't seem to convince you.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Yeah, I know and that’s what I’ve been trying to get across here. When I say: “flow to the filter/engine” I mean the flow that was NOT diverted back to the sump – but literally the actual flow that goes through the filter/engine circuit.
The total flow out of the pump = flow to the filter/engine + flow back to the sump (that's a C=A+B equation). Whatever doesn’t go to the sump goes to the filter/engine. Imagine you are looking at the point in the system right before the oil goes into the filter. The flow that was diverted to the sump is NOT part of that volume because the pressure relief valve is upstream of the filter.
See you keep focusing on oil volume and oil pump relief when I've been focusing on oil filter restrction and filter bypassing cold oil.
But you keep missing the point that oil volume and oil pump relief pressure setting are key factors in this whole discussion. They are the primary reason an cause of PSID in an oil filter. They are tied DIRECTLY together. You’ve missed the big picture once again. This is getting old and repetitive … seriously.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
I’ve given examples more than once trying to show why/how the engine is more restrictive to flow than the filter, but you must have skimmed over the details. There needs to be comprehension to get the point.
You are not comprehending what I meant. What I said was that I think a filter is more restrictive to cold oil than the galleys that feed oil to bearings and other lubricated parts. Sure if you take the engine's oiling system as a whole I'd agree that engine is more restrictive than the filter especially to hot oil, but I don't see the engine as a "restriction" since the engines lubricated parts are the whole reason for the oiling system.
That doesn’t really make much sense. Who cares if the oil galleries are not restrictive. Do you actually know what makes an engine restrictive to oil flow? … it’s not the galleries. And why would the engine be more restrictive “especially to hot oil”? Its restrictive to hot and cold oil. It’s basically a fixed restriction … so it restricts the flow relative to the viscosity going through it. The more we debate, the more I realize you don’t understand the technical aspects of the system as a whole. Just stating a fact.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
In other words cold oil can flow to the parts with less restriction than a filter may with cold oil. How many times are you going to say my argument is that, The engine is less restrictive than the filter". That's a strawman.
First sentence is not true. If a filter is a fixed flow resistor, and the engine is a fixed flow resistor, then why would one become less restrictive based on the oil temperature than the other one? It makes zero sense. Your arguments are a “smokeman” – thinner than a "strawman".
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
How could you have a 30 PSID across the filter when the bypass is set to 8 or 10 PSI? Theoretically, the PSID across the filter would/should hold constant near the bypass valve setting if the valve is working correctly.
That's been my whole point that the filter must bypass cold oil because of the pressure differential. That's been my point all along.
True ONLY if the PSID is greater than the bypass valve setting. We are going full circle again. Remember all the factors that will determine the filter's PSID?
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
As far as the 5 PSID with hot oil … I guess you missed my thread (do a search if interested) where Purolator actually bench tested a PureONE filter with hot oil and at 18 GPM it only produced 5 ~ 6 PSID.
But this is with hot oil. I was never talking about hot oil. You yourself posted a chart that with cold oil the filters were at 5 PSID at 1-2 GPM. Now going back to your, "You said the engine was less restrictive" mantra, as I said above, my point was that I doubted that the engine's galleys would cause more or as much pressure drop than that (the filter) to cold oil at the parts like bearings that need oil pressure.
Here’s your quote below I was responding to, that you conveniently didn’t show. Note the part about HOT oil. Do you believe the test data right from the Sr. Engineer at Purolator? That data showed how small the filter PSID was with 18 GPM of hot oil flow - namely 5 PSID.
Quote:
My point is that if you has 80 psi of cold oil pressure between the filter and pump you would likely have 30 psi or greater drop across the filter unless it bypassed. I dount you would only see 5 psi drop even with hot oil at 80 psi.
Nobody cares about the galleries in the engine! The galleries are relatively large, and basically invisible as a cause of engine oil flow restriction. Engine restriction is basically ALL due to tight bearing clearances that the oil is forced through. Ever hear of an engine losing oil pressure because the bearings are shot?
This “gallery” side track talk is something you’ve started to try and cover up the fact that you were really talking about the engine as a whole when talking about filter vs. engine restriction. There were many times you plain flat out said "the filter is more restrictive than the engine" without qualifying the statement with the “galleries”. Sorry, I don’t buy it … losing traction quickly – more smokemen appearing.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Yes, the engine is always more restrictive than the filter. What kind of engine pressure do you think it would take to push 18 GPM through it. Like I said a while back, probably 150+ PSI. Sounds like you are changing your story about the engine flow restriction – your quote: “I was talking about in the narrow sense that there would be little oil pressure drop at any point these oiled engine parts.” Not sure what you mean there.
Again you keep focusing on hot oil and volume. I've been talking about cold oil and pressure to the lubricated parts. I never changed my story, you just didn't comprehend what I meant.
I’ve also focused on cold oil and volume and pressure. Volume and pressure are ALWAYS a factor regardless of the oil temperature/viscosity. As I said above, the restriction in the engine is due to the tight bearing clearances in the crank, rods and camshaft(s). The relative restriction ratio of the filter/engine basically doesn’t change due to oil temperature or flow volume. They both rise and fall with the same basic fixed ratio to each other.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Here’s an idea … you should start a new thread and ask members if they think the engine or the filter is more restrictive to flow, since nobody will dare chime in here. I know what the answer will be.
I have no interest in asking a strawman question you created and are trying to put in my mouth.
You should to prove to yourself what the real story is and get some real validation of your theory since I can't seem to convince you.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Yeah, I know and that’s what I’ve been trying to get across here. When I say: “flow to the filter/engine” I mean the flow that was NOT diverted back to the sump – but literally the actual flow that goes through the filter/engine circuit.
The total flow out of the pump = flow to the filter/engine + flow back to the sump (that's a C=A+B equation). Whatever doesn’t go to the sump goes to the filter/engine. Imagine you are looking at the point in the system right before the oil goes into the filter. The flow that was diverted to the sump is NOT part of that volume because the pressure relief valve is upstream of the filter.
See you keep focusing on oil volume and oil pump relief when I've been focusing on oil filter restrction and filter bypassing cold oil.
But you keep missing the point that oil volume and oil pump relief pressure setting are key factors in this whole discussion. They are the primary reason an cause of PSID in an oil filter. They are tied DIRECTLY together. You’ve missed the big picture once again. This is getting old and repetitive … seriously.
Originally Posted By: Soobs
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
I'm assuming the bypass valve is set to 23 PSI on these filters?
I wish I knew. There was a guy on another forum that said he tested the old black Tokyo Roki filter to have a bypass valve that opened at about 18 psi and the blue Honeywell opened at 23 psi. Now how he "tested" this I have no idea. It's tough for me to take random information from the internet (with no sources, references, or explainations of testing procedures) as hard fact. It would be nice to actually see a technical publication or email from Subaru regarding this; however, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. It's just good-to-know info.
It's possible to get a fairly accurate indication of what the bypass valve is set to, depending on how it's designed. If you know the area that "sees" the pressure difference across the filter, and can measure the force required to make the valve start to open, then you can calculate the PSID that would make it open.
In a nutshell, the filter's bypass setting should ideally take into consideration the engine's oiling system max supply pressure and max flow volume, as well as the filter's flow vs. PSID characteristics. This is probably what Subaru means by "the valve was tuned specifically for Subaru engines" in that filter ad. Some Subarus have pretty high volume oil pumps, and depending on how restrictive the OEM filter is will determine its bypass setting.
One reason I got the flow vs PSID data from Purolator for my car was because the filter bypass valve is in the engine block on the LS6 engine, and set to ~8 to 10 PSI. So I'm stuck with that bypass setting regardless of what filter I use. If I happened to slap on a fairly restrictive filter, then it might be possible that it goes into bypass even with hot oil at max engine RPM. At least with the PureONE I know for a fact that can't happen, unless the filter was severely clogged.
I'd say using a PureONE on the high oil volume Subarus would be fine because the bypass is set to 14 ~ 16 PSI in the filter, and based on the test data of the PureONE it shows they flow very well ... way better than I imagined.
I can't vouch for other filters, but any of them known to flow well that have a relatively high bypass setting would probably also be fine.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
I'm assuming the bypass valve is set to 23 PSI on these filters?
I wish I knew. There was a guy on another forum that said he tested the old black Tokyo Roki filter to have a bypass valve that opened at about 18 psi and the blue Honeywell opened at 23 psi. Now how he "tested" this I have no idea. It's tough for me to take random information from the internet (with no sources, references, or explainations of testing procedures) as hard fact. It would be nice to actually see a technical publication or email from Subaru regarding this; however, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. It's just good-to-know info.
It's possible to get a fairly accurate indication of what the bypass valve is set to, depending on how it's designed. If you know the area that "sees" the pressure difference across the filter, and can measure the force required to make the valve start to open, then you can calculate the PSID that would make it open.
In a nutshell, the filter's bypass setting should ideally take into consideration the engine's oiling system max supply pressure and max flow volume, as well as the filter's flow vs. PSID characteristics. This is probably what Subaru means by "the valve was tuned specifically for Subaru engines" in that filter ad. Some Subarus have pretty high volume oil pumps, and depending on how restrictive the OEM filter is will determine its bypass setting.
One reason I got the flow vs PSID data from Purolator for my car was because the filter bypass valve is in the engine block on the LS6 engine, and set to ~8 to 10 PSI. So I'm stuck with that bypass setting regardless of what filter I use. If I happened to slap on a fairly restrictive filter, then it might be possible that it goes into bypass even with hot oil at max engine RPM. At least with the PureONE I know for a fact that can't happen, unless the filter was severely clogged.
I'd say using a PureONE on the high oil volume Subarus would be fine because the bypass is set to 14 ~ 16 PSI in the filter, and based on the test data of the PureONE it shows they flow very well ... way better than I imagined.
I can't vouch for other filters, but any of them known to flow well that have a relatively high bypass setting would probably also be fine.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
That doesn’t really make much sense. Who cares if the oil galleries are not restrictive. Do you actually know what makes an engine restrictive to oil flow? … it’s not the galleries. And why would the engine be more restrictive “especially to hot oil”? Its restrictive to hot and cold oil. It’s basically a fixed restriction … so it restricts the flow relative to the viscosity going through it. The more we debate, the more I realize you don’t understand the technical aspects of the system as a whole. Just stating a fact.
Why do you feel like you have to explain everything to me. Who cares if the bearing are restrictive? The oil is where it needs to be. You seem to think restriction to a bearing is not important. Again the point is regardless of what the engine's restriction might be to oil flow, provided there still enough flow the filter can still be a restriction and need to bypass.
Quote:
First sentence is not true. If a filter is a fixed flow resistor, and the engine is a fixed flow resistor, then why would one become less restrictive based on the oil temperature than the other one? It makes zero sense. Your arguments are a “smokeman” – thinner than a "strawman".
Again you are focusing on the resriction at/through the bearing and I was focusing on oil flow to the bearings. This is why I have been mentioning oil galleys from the beginning. You seem to not care about oil supply to lubricated parts or something.
Quote:
True ONLY if the PSID is greater than the bypass valve setting. We are going full circle again. Remember all the factors that will determine the filter's PSID?
DUH, finally. Why do you feel like you have to mention or have to spell out every elementary conclusion?
Quote:
Here’s your quote below I was responding to, that you conveniently didn’t show. Note the part about HOT oil. Do you believe the test data right from the Sr. Engineer at Purolator? That data showed how small the filter PSID was with 18 GPM of hot oil flow - namely 5 PSID.
That doesn’t really make much sense. Who cares if the oil galleries are not restrictive. Do you actually know what makes an engine restrictive to oil flow? … it’s not the galleries. And why would the engine be more restrictive “especially to hot oil”? Its restrictive to hot and cold oil. It’s basically a fixed restriction … so it restricts the flow relative to the viscosity going through it. The more we debate, the more I realize you don’t understand the technical aspects of the system as a whole. Just stating a fact.
Why do you feel like you have to explain everything to me. Who cares if the bearing are restrictive? The oil is where it needs to be. You seem to think restriction to a bearing is not important. Again the point is regardless of what the engine's restriction might be to oil flow, provided there still enough flow the filter can still be a restriction and need to bypass.
Quote:
First sentence is not true. If a filter is a fixed flow resistor, and the engine is a fixed flow resistor, then why would one become less restrictive based on the oil temperature than the other one? It makes zero sense. Your arguments are a “smokeman” – thinner than a "strawman".
Again you are focusing on the resriction at/through the bearing and I was focusing on oil flow to the bearings. This is why I have been mentioning oil galleys from the beginning. You seem to not care about oil supply to lubricated parts or something.
Quote:
True ONLY if the PSID is greater than the bypass valve setting. We are going full circle again. Remember all the factors that will determine the filter's PSID?
DUH, finally. Why do you feel like you have to mention or have to spell out every elementary conclusion?
Quote:
Here’s your quote below I was responding to, that you conveniently didn’t show. Note the part about HOT oil. Do you believe the test data right from the Sr. Engineer at Purolator? That data showed how small the filter PSID was with 18 GPM of hot oil flow - namely 5 PSID.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
That doesn’t really make much sense. Who cares if the oil galleries are not restrictive. Do you actually know what makes an engine restrictive to oil flow? … it’s not the galleries. And why would the engine be more restrictive “especially to hot oil”? Its restrictive to hot and cold oil. It’s basically a fixed restriction … so it restricts the flow relative to the viscosity going through it. The more we debate, the more I realize you don’t understand the technical aspects of the system as a whole. Just stating a fact.
a) Why do you feel like you have to explain everything to me. b) Who cares if the bearing are restrictive? The oil is where it needs to be. You seem to think restriction to a bearing is not important. c) Again the point is regardless of what the engine's restriction might be to oil flow, provided there still enough flow the filter can still be a restriction and need to bypass.
a) Because you obviously don’t understand a lot of technical aspects of this discussion.
b) Anyone who knows why an engine is restrictive to flow knows it is the bearing clearance that causes the flow restriction.
c) Yeah, I’ve agreed with that many times. Why are you still focused on this point?
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
First sentence is not true. If a filter is a fixed flow resistor, and the engine is a fixed flow resistor, then why would one become less restrictive based on the oil temperature than the other one? It makes zero sense. Your arguments are a “smokeman” – thinner than a "strawman".
a) Again you are focusing on the resriction at/through the bearing and I was focusing on oil flow to the bearings. This is why I have been mentioning oil galleys from the beginning. b) You seem to not care about oil supply to lubricated parts or something.
a) Nobody cares about oil galleries ... BTW, it’s gallery (a long and narrow passage), not galley. You never started mentioning galleries until just recently. Galleries don’t matter ... it’s just a way to get oil to the bearings. The restriction in the galleries is nothing compared to the restriction caused by tight bearing clearances.
b) What ever goes into the filter and goes back to the sump is ALL “oil supplied to the lubricated parts”. We aren’t talking about that, but focusing on the total restriction caused by the engine.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
True ONLY if the PSID is greater than the bypass valve setting. We are going full circle again. Remember all the factors that will determine the filter's PSID?
DUH, finally. Why do you feel like you have to mention or have to spell out every elementary conclusion?
Because you give many indications that this stuff is over your head. You keep stating things that are not accurate, and as such it makes you look like you don’t understand so I’m trying to help you out.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Do you believe the test data right from the Sr. Engineer at Purolator? That data showed how small the filter PSID was with 18 GPM of hot oil flow - namely 5 PSID.
Well big deal the PureOne may have just barely obtained 5 psid with 80psi hot oil pressure according to Purolator. So it performed a little better than expected, I didn't say it would be much higher. What is this playing gotcha?
I guess you don’t believe hard facts like test data ... another indication.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Nobody cares about the galleries in the engine! The galleries are relatively large, and basically invisible as a cause of engine oil flow restriction. Engine restriction is basically ALL due to tight bearing clearances that the oil is forced through. Ever hear of an engine losing oil pressure because the bearings are shot?
This “gallery” side track talk is something you’ve started to try and cover up the fact that you were really talking about the engine as a whole when talking about filter vs. engine restriction. There were many times you plain flat out said "the filter is more restrictive than the engine" without qualifying the statement with the “galleries”. Sorry, I don’t buy it … losing traction quickly – more smokemen appearing.
a) Say what you want but I care about oil supply in the galleys to the engine lubricating parts. And the parts sure care.
b) If the oil isn't hot there's little need to have high flow through the part. This has been my position all along whether you want to believe it or not. But what [censored] me off is you creating strawman arguments by saying I meant something I haven't.
a) I really don’t understand why you are so stuck on “oil galleries”. They don’t matter in this discussion. They provide virtually zero resistance to flow. They get filled with oil that is supplies by the pump. Unless the filter is totally clogged and the bypass valve doesn’t work, then there would be an oiling problem. Galleries really don’t come into play at all in terms of causing flow restriction.
b) Who said you need or don’t need high flow through any part? I have no idea what tangent you’re veering off on now. Waste of time.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
I’ve also focused on cold oil and volume and pressure. Volume and pressure are ALWAYS a factor regardless of the oil temperature/viscosity. As I said above, the restriction in the engine is due to the tight bearing clearances in the crank, rods and camshaft(s). The relative restriction ratio of the filter/engine basically doesn’t change due to oil temperature or flow volume. They both rise and fall with the same basic fixed ratio to each other.
a)Yeah I don't know why you continuosly bring up things that have little to nothing to do with what I've been focusing on. b) My whole point all along was that the oil filter can be a restriction to cold oil flow and bypasses. c) Finally you admitted it would, but then you have to go on and on about engine restriction to oil, and now bearings. I don't need you to explain that to me.
a) Actually, I’ve lost track of really what you’re focusing on ... seems to be those pesky oil galleries lately (that don’t matter). If you don’t understand the relationship between oil flow volume, viscosity, pressure and resistance then you will never conclude or agree to anything in these discussioins.
b) Yeah, I’ve agreed MANY times to that same issue. So what’s your point or real argument in these discussions?
c) It seems I do need to explain it, as you clearly are mislead on how you think it works. Please explain to me what your whole point is about the engine restriction, and how you believe that the filter is so much more restrictive to flow than an engine assy.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
You should to prove to yourself what the real story is and get some real validation of your theory since I can't seem to convince you.
I'm not too worried about it. But you keep insisting on disagreeing in an unagreeable way so I keep responding.
Why should I agree with something that is wrong? ... would you. But the question is, who’s wrong and who isn’t. That’s why you should ask the question and prove it to yourself.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
]I'm not missing the point. what I've said long ago is we don't really know that the oil volume isn't high enough that the filter pressure difference to cold oil won't cause bypassing. So why you keep arguing this on and on, specualting about engine restriction and bearing restriction etc is beyond me.
You’ve missed many points actually. Yeah, and I’ve agreed that a filter could or could not bypass with cold oil dependant on many factors. You seem to just ignore all that. You’re narrowly focused on this stuff ... I’ve tired to show the “big picture”, but you only care about one little spot on that picture. I’ve agreed that filters can and will bypass with cold oil given the right conditions ... but you’ve not understood that it is also possible they may not given the same conditions based on the car/filter combination and all factors involved. I think you just like to argue and not try to learn or understand things you obviously don’t understand. Someday you might see it. It's been (kinda) fun. I really can't waste more of my valuble time with this merry-go-round.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
That doesn’t really make much sense. Who cares if the oil galleries are not restrictive. Do you actually know what makes an engine restrictive to oil flow? … it’s not the galleries. And why would the engine be more restrictive “especially to hot oil”? Its restrictive to hot and cold oil. It’s basically a fixed restriction … so it restricts the flow relative to the viscosity going through it. The more we debate, the more I realize you don’t understand the technical aspects of the system as a whole. Just stating a fact.
a) Why do you feel like you have to explain everything to me. b) Who cares if the bearing are restrictive? The oil is where it needs to be. You seem to think restriction to a bearing is not important. c) Again the point is regardless of what the engine's restriction might be to oil flow, provided there still enough flow the filter can still be a restriction and need to bypass.
a) Because you obviously don’t understand a lot of technical aspects of this discussion.
b) Anyone who knows why an engine is restrictive to flow knows it is the bearing clearance that causes the flow restriction.
c) Yeah, I’ve agreed with that many times. Why are you still focused on this point?
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
First sentence is not true. If a filter is a fixed flow resistor, and the engine is a fixed flow resistor, then why would one become less restrictive based on the oil temperature than the other one? It makes zero sense. Your arguments are a “smokeman” – thinner than a "strawman".
a) Again you are focusing on the resriction at/through the bearing and I was focusing on oil flow to the bearings. This is why I have been mentioning oil galleys from the beginning. b) You seem to not care about oil supply to lubricated parts or something.
a) Nobody cares about oil galleries ... BTW, it’s gallery (a long and narrow passage), not galley. You never started mentioning galleries until just recently. Galleries don’t matter ... it’s just a way to get oil to the bearings. The restriction in the galleries is nothing compared to the restriction caused by tight bearing clearances.
b) What ever goes into the filter and goes back to the sump is ALL “oil supplied to the lubricated parts”. We aren’t talking about that, but focusing on the total restriction caused by the engine.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
True ONLY if the PSID is greater than the bypass valve setting. We are going full circle again. Remember all the factors that will determine the filter's PSID?
DUH, finally. Why do you feel like you have to mention or have to spell out every elementary conclusion?
Because you give many indications that this stuff is over your head. You keep stating things that are not accurate, and as such it makes you look like you don’t understand so I’m trying to help you out.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Do you believe the test data right from the Sr. Engineer at Purolator? That data showed how small the filter PSID was with 18 GPM of hot oil flow - namely 5 PSID.
Well big deal the PureOne may have just barely obtained 5 psid with 80psi hot oil pressure according to Purolator. So it performed a little better than expected, I didn't say it would be much higher. What is this playing gotcha?
I guess you don’t believe hard facts like test data ... another indication.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Nobody cares about the galleries in the engine! The galleries are relatively large, and basically invisible as a cause of engine oil flow restriction. Engine restriction is basically ALL due to tight bearing clearances that the oil is forced through. Ever hear of an engine losing oil pressure because the bearings are shot?
This “gallery” side track talk is something you’ve started to try and cover up the fact that you were really talking about the engine as a whole when talking about filter vs. engine restriction. There were many times you plain flat out said "the filter is more restrictive than the engine" without qualifying the statement with the “galleries”. Sorry, I don’t buy it … losing traction quickly – more smokemen appearing.
a) Say what you want but I care about oil supply in the galleys to the engine lubricating parts. And the parts sure care.
b) If the oil isn't hot there's little need to have high flow through the part. This has been my position all along whether you want to believe it or not. But what [censored] me off is you creating strawman arguments by saying I meant something I haven't.
a) I really don’t understand why you are so stuck on “oil galleries”. They don’t matter in this discussion. They provide virtually zero resistance to flow. They get filled with oil that is supplies by the pump. Unless the filter is totally clogged and the bypass valve doesn’t work, then there would be an oiling problem. Galleries really don’t come into play at all in terms of causing flow restriction.
b) Who said you need or don’t need high flow through any part? I have no idea what tangent you’re veering off on now. Waste of time.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
I’ve also focused on cold oil and volume and pressure. Volume and pressure are ALWAYS a factor regardless of the oil temperature/viscosity. As I said above, the restriction in the engine is due to the tight bearing clearances in the crank, rods and camshaft(s). The relative restriction ratio of the filter/engine basically doesn’t change due to oil temperature or flow volume. They both rise and fall with the same basic fixed ratio to each other.
a)Yeah I don't know why you continuosly bring up things that have little to nothing to do with what I've been focusing on. b) My whole point all along was that the oil filter can be a restriction to cold oil flow and bypasses. c) Finally you admitted it would, but then you have to go on and on about engine restriction to oil, and now bearings. I don't need you to explain that to me.
a) Actually, I’ve lost track of really what you’re focusing on ... seems to be those pesky oil galleries lately (that don’t matter). If you don’t understand the relationship between oil flow volume, viscosity, pressure and resistance then you will never conclude or agree to anything in these discussioins.
b) Yeah, I’ve agreed MANY times to that same issue. So what’s your point or real argument in these discussions?
c) It seems I do need to explain it, as you clearly are mislead on how you think it works. Please explain to me what your whole point is about the engine restriction, and how you believe that the filter is so much more restrictive to flow than an engine assy.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
You should to prove to yourself what the real story is and get some real validation of your theory since I can't seem to convince you.
I'm not too worried about it. But you keep insisting on disagreeing in an unagreeable way so I keep responding.
Why should I agree with something that is wrong? ... would you. But the question is, who’s wrong and who isn’t. That’s why you should ask the question and prove it to yourself.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
]I'm not missing the point. what I've said long ago is we don't really know that the oil volume isn't high enough that the filter pressure difference to cold oil won't cause bypassing. So why you keep arguing this on and on, specualting about engine restriction and bearing restriction etc is beyond me.
You’ve missed many points actually. Yeah, and I’ve agreed that a filter could or could not bypass with cold oil dependant on many factors. You seem to just ignore all that. You’re narrowly focused on this stuff ... I’ve tired to show the “big picture”, but you only care about one little spot on that picture. I’ve agreed that filters can and will bypass with cold oil given the right conditions ... but you’ve not understood that it is also possible they may not given the same conditions based on the car/filter combination and all factors involved. I think you just like to argue and not try to learn or understand things you obviously don’t understand. Someday you might see it. It's been (kinda) fun. I really can't waste more of my valuble time with this merry-go-round.
Well there's no point in debating this with you anymore with all your trash talking . The whole point I was making is a filter can be restrictive to cold oil and bypass. The galleys or galleries (I'll use your term since you obviously spent a lot of time and went to the dictionary) aren't as restrictive like I said (and you now are admitting) and do become more restrictive to oil flow as the viscosity increases (cold oil), but the oil filter might be more restrictive.
We don't know what the flow of oil might typically be through a cold engine vs oil filter psid. That's the bottom line. So why you go on and on about oil pump relief vales and engine restriction is beyond me. It still doesn't determine cold oil flow rates.
You seem to think unimpeded flow to bearing and lifters aren't important, then you accuse me of not understand engines.
Bottom line is I'm tired of your rambling long replies that don't/can't result in the answer regarding cold oil bypass, and your attitude and insults, and creating strawman arguments.
We don't know what the flow of oil might typically be through a cold engine vs oil filter psid. That's the bottom line. So why you go on and on about oil pump relief vales and engine restriction is beyond me. It still doesn't determine cold oil flow rates.
You seem to think unimpeded flow to bearing and lifters aren't important, then you accuse me of not understand engines.
Bottom line is I'm tired of your rambling long replies that don't/can't result in the answer regarding cold oil bypass, and your attitude and insults, and creating strawman arguments.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Well there's no point in debating this with you anymore with all your trash talking . The whole point I was making is a filter can be restrictive to cold oil and bypass. The galleys or galleries (I'll use your term since you obviously spent a lot of time and went to the dictionary) aren't as restrictive like I said (and you now are admitting) and do become more restrictive to oil flow as the viscosity increases (cold oil), but the oil filter might be more restrictive.
Sorry, no trash talking intended ... just reality and calling it as I see it. Yes, I've agreed with you on "your point" many times now. How many times do you want to hear that I've agreed on that point? ... time to bow out and let it go.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
We don't know what the flow of oil might typically be through a cold engine vs oil filter psid. That's the bottom line. So why you go on and on about oil pump relief vales and engine restriction is beyond me. It still doesn't determine cold oil flow rates.
You seem to think unimpeded flow to bearing and lifters aren't important, then you accuse me of not understand engines.
But oil pump relief valve setting and engine restriction absolutely determine the cold oil (as well as hot oil) flow rates - it is absolutely key to the discussion. This is why I say you are missing the big picture. That is why I keep bringing it up ... in hopes you will see the importance to the dicussion. But it falls on deaf ear, or blind eyes ....
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Bottom line is I'm tired of your rambling long replies that don't/can't result in the answer regarding cold oil bypass, and your attitude and insults, and creating strawman arguments.
If you think I'm insulting then I'm sorry it's just really all in your imagination - I'm just stating the facts. If you don't like the way I correspond, then don't keep rambling on about something you don't fully understand.
I've agreed with your main point (many times !) ... if you don't care beyond that, then it's like ....
It is what it is ...
Well there's no point in debating this with you anymore with all your trash talking . The whole point I was making is a filter can be restrictive to cold oil and bypass. The galleys or galleries (I'll use your term since you obviously spent a lot of time and went to the dictionary) aren't as restrictive like I said (and you now are admitting) and do become more restrictive to oil flow as the viscosity increases (cold oil), but the oil filter might be more restrictive.
Sorry, no trash talking intended ... just reality and calling it as I see it. Yes, I've agreed with you on "your point" many times now. How many times do you want to hear that I've agreed on that point? ... time to bow out and let it go.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
We don't know what the flow of oil might typically be through a cold engine vs oil filter psid. That's the bottom line. So why you go on and on about oil pump relief vales and engine restriction is beyond me. It still doesn't determine cold oil flow rates.
You seem to think unimpeded flow to bearing and lifters aren't important, then you accuse me of not understand engines.
But oil pump relief valve setting and engine restriction absolutely determine the cold oil (as well as hot oil) flow rates - it is absolutely key to the discussion. This is why I say you are missing the big picture. That is why I keep bringing it up ... in hopes you will see the importance to the dicussion. But it falls on deaf ear, or blind eyes ....
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Bottom line is I'm tired of your rambling long replies that don't/can't result in the answer regarding cold oil bypass, and your attitude and insults, and creating strawman arguments.
If you think I'm insulting then I'm sorry it's just really all in your imagination - I'm just stating the facts. If you don't like the way I correspond, then don't keep rambling on about something you don't fully understand.
I've agreed with your main point (many times !) ... if you don't care beyond that, then it's like ....
It is what it is ...
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Sorry, no trash talking intended ... just reality and calling it as I see it. Yes, I've agreed with you on "your point" many times now. How many times do you want to hear that I've agreed on that point? ... time to bow out and let it go.
OK then. I'm just saying there was no need to go on about engine oil restriction since none of that would determine directly how much flow typically there would be anyway, and if there would be filter bypassing. How many times did I say I understood what you were talking about and basically agreed to its accuracy to a point and why I was ignoring those factors?
Quote:
But oil pump relief valve setting and engine restriction absolutely determine the cold oil (as well as hot oil) flow rates - it is absolutely key to the discussion. This is why I say you are missing the big picture. That is why I keep bringing it up ... in hopes you will see the importance to the dicussion. But it falls on deaf ear, or blind eyes ....
No what I said was that to keep talking about them after I long ago acknowledge that they determine flow rate (whatever it may actually be), and when just talking about them doesn't determine flow rate anyway, is pointless.
Quote:
If you think I'm insulting then I'm sorry it's just really all in your imagination - I'm just stating the facts. If you don't like the way I correspond, then don't keep rambling on about something you don't fully understand.
See there in the bolded part is the problem I've had with you. If you can't see how that's insulting then I don't know what to tell you. You keep insulting me by saying I don't understand, when I explained several times that speculating about restriction of engine bearings, cam followers etc is not going to determine flow rates, or how restrictive the filter will be. You kept rambling on about them so I kept responding.
Quote:
I've agreed with your main point (many times !) ... if you don't care beyond that, then it's like ....
It is what it is ...
OK then I'm willing to move on. I've been ready if you are.
Sorry, no trash talking intended ... just reality and calling it as I see it. Yes, I've agreed with you on "your point" many times now. How many times do you want to hear that I've agreed on that point? ... time to bow out and let it go.
OK then. I'm just saying there was no need to go on about engine oil restriction since none of that would determine directly how much flow typically there would be anyway, and if there would be filter bypassing. How many times did I say I understood what you were talking about and basically agreed to its accuracy to a point and why I was ignoring those factors?
Quote:
But oil pump relief valve setting and engine restriction absolutely determine the cold oil (as well as hot oil) flow rates - it is absolutely key to the discussion. This is why I say you are missing the big picture. That is why I keep bringing it up ... in hopes you will see the importance to the dicussion. But it falls on deaf ear, or blind eyes ....
No what I said was that to keep talking about them after I long ago acknowledge that they determine flow rate (whatever it may actually be), and when just talking about them doesn't determine flow rate anyway, is pointless.
Quote:
If you think I'm insulting then I'm sorry it's just really all in your imagination - I'm just stating the facts. If you don't like the way I correspond, then don't keep rambling on about something you don't fully understand.
See there in the bolded part is the problem I've had with you. If you can't see how that's insulting then I don't know what to tell you. You keep insulting me by saying I don't understand, when I explained several times that speculating about restriction of engine bearings, cam followers etc is not going to determine flow rates, or how restrictive the filter will be. You kept rambling on about them so I kept responding.
Quote:
I've agreed with your main point (many times !) ... if you don't care beyond that, then it's like ....
It is what it is ...
OK then I'm willing to move on. I've been ready if you are.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
See there in the bolded part is the problem I've had with you. If you can't see how that's insulting then I don't know what to tell you. You keep insulting me by saying I don't understand, when I explained several times that speculating about restriction of engine bearings, cam followers etc is not going to determine flow rates, or how restrictive the filter will be. You kept rambling on about them so I kept responding.
Sorry ... but how can the truth be insulting?
BTW - I can take some of your comments as insulting too.
Move on!
See there in the bolded part is the problem I've had with you. If you can't see how that's insulting then I don't know what to tell you. You keep insulting me by saying I don't understand, when I explained several times that speculating about restriction of engine bearings, cam followers etc is not going to determine flow rates, or how restrictive the filter will be. You kept rambling on about them so I kept responding.
Sorry ... but how can the truth be insulting?
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