anyone ever use AC line conditioners?

[chiks]

Originally Posted By: Colt45ws

Good luck finding those fancy 'filter' things on bottom of the barrel PSUs. Anybody who knows anything won't run those but a large amount are still on the market.


Why would one buy bottom of the barrel and then spend money on ac filters

 

[sleddriver]

Quote:
As to the ones that only claim to remove noise, I'd look at my line with a scope to see what "noise" was present and then decide on a solution.


Bingo! I experimented with this 15 yrs ago when I built a device that would safely allow me to view the AC waveform on my oscilloscope. For those that don't know what this is, it's a precision instrument that allows you to actually see electrical waveforms in real time and measure their characteristics precisely. If there is noise on the power line, you'll see it riding up & down the AC waveform as "fuzz".

Later the local Fluke rep loaned me a 43B single phase power quality analyzer. I measured utility power harmonics at several places around town, used it to measure noisy devices like hairdryers and universal motors.

It also measures in-rush currents, which are interesting. A friends 12" radial arm saw, wired for 110VAC, pulled 100A of inrush current while starting up!

Such a device would quickly tell you whether you need AC power conditioning at your location or not. However, in most, if not all, consumer applications the 43B is akin to using a locomotive to crack walnuts.

Also keep in mind that it's the quality of the internal AC to DC power supply that powers the electronics, that actually 'feeds' them. Not only are these usually filtered & bypassed, they're also regulated.

Then you also must consider induced noise vs radiated noise, like RF. You can see this gets very involved rather quickly.

If you like to tinker and enjoy a good hunt/learning exercise, take any portable AM radio, tune it to a quiet part of the dial, then walk around holding it against your portable phone, cd/dvd/blu-ray player, computer power supply, TV, blender, coffee maker, hairdryer, power tools, etc. and see which one makes the most noise. The noise you're hearing is radiated RF noise in the AM band (550kHz - 1700kHz). Turn the radio 90° in either direction and see if the noise changes. Then tune the radio to a STRONG local AM station and test the noise source again. Hear anything different?

The short answer is No. It won't make a difference you can hear/tell or smell. Neither will it 'fix' a bad/weak/poor power supply.

 

[RiceCake]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead
If you can't afford that lifestyle, sorry.


This is the only reason I hate so-called "audiophiles",among other people. Every denomination needs that subgroup of people it seems who lament that other people are too poor to afford their lifestyle and persistently insist that their equipment is better, even if for every single practical purpose, its completely immeasurable beyond psychosomatic factors.

You're happy, be happy, not stopping you, but the second you call it a lifestyle that others cannot afford, well, enjoy blowing your own horn.

Unless you're absolutely obsessed with audio to a point of insanity, like Carnoobie is about everything in his life, good quality equipment will be fine and AC filters will be a step that gets you nowhere in the grand scheme of things.

Please remember that the same people selling folks AC line filters insist on things like gold plated nitrogen filled HDMI cables (or whatever the newest gimmick is) claiming it enhances picture quality, despite HDMI being a digital signal format where it either transmits information fine or fails with high error rates.

 

[Kruse]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead

What's with all the G.D. hate around here for anyone who aspires to have better quality audio equipment?



Pretty sure the hate is directed at the "holier-than-thou" attitudes, not at the aspirations of people attempting to buy better equipment. And getting back to the original topic, how many audiophiles do you know will bet huge amounts of their own money on a self listening test with filtered vs. non-filtered AC being fed through their own stereo system?
I think everybody knows that a high dollar complete setup will sound better than a $59 setup from Big Lots.

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: RiceCake

This is the only reason I hate so-called "audiophiles",among other people.


I guess you're just underscoring it now. Hate?

And just what other people do you hate?

If blurting out "I hate audiophiles" doesn't taint one's comments with irrational bias, I don't know what does.

I don't think myself an audiophile. I suspect that the OP doesn't think himself audiophile either, but just a guy who wants a better sounding audio system. Maybe that is an audiophile. Honestly, I'm not even sure what a fair definition of the term "audiophile" is. You seem to have your own definition that seems to include the OP's question.

But a question on AC line conditioning is a very legitimate question. Power filtration, conditioning and transient control is an established industry not confined to audio. Belittling line conditioning out of hand and comparing it with psudo-science cable products I hope is just an emotional over reach. There are circumstances where additional conditioning provides a meaningful and measurable benefit in an audio system, just as it can in many other electronics environments. I'm not sure it is needed here, or in what degree, or whether anything more than a simple computer-grade TVSS with on-board filtration is required. But power conditioning is not snake oil or some immeasurable domain limited to "hated audiophiles".

Hate? Wow. BTW, I never said others can't afford having nice audio equipment. A lot of guys here do, some others choose not to. And many choose to have nice cars, too. Most folks don't flaunt how they spend their money. But I don't understand your apparent resentment about those that can buy or want those things.

I'll leave you with this. What is it electrically that you are listening to through an audio system?

 

[westom]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead
But a question on AC line conditioning is a very legitimate question. Power filtration, conditioning and transient control is an established industry not confined to audio.
Most line conditioning is snake oil. What happens to the best conditioned power? Converted back to 'dirty' power. High frequency noise spikes. Then superior line conditioners already inside electronics convert that even 'dirtiest' power to rock solid DC voltages. Line conditioner only enriched its manufacturer.

'Dirtier' or the 'cleanest' AC power is still converted to same 'dirtiest' power. So what did that line conditioner do? Nothing. Any 'cleaning' is simply converted back to 'dirty' power before being 'cleaned' again. Audiophiles are some of the easist to scam with miracle line conditioners. They only believe salesmen who forget to mention that 'cleaned' power is only made 'dirty' again.

Another example are Monster products. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product for even high prices (higher profits). Because the Monster is more expensve, then so many also recommend that line conditioner - that claims to do near zero 'cleaning'.

If any line conditioner does something useful, then the relevant manufacturer spec number was quote here. No numbers quoted for one simple reason. Numbers often claim 'near zero' performance. But they are marketing to people who only know what advertising, hearsay, and salesmen have said. Who ignore what informed engineers say. They are not marketing to people who actually read the spec numbers.

Line conditioners are recommended mostly by myth and hearsay to the naive. The word snake oil applies. Better line conditioners are already inside every electronic appliance.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Originally Posted By: Volvohead
If you can't afford that lifestyle, sorry.


This is the only reason I hate so-called "audiophiles",among other people. Every denomination needs that subgroup of people it seems who lament that other people are too poor to afford their lifestyle and persistently insist that their equipment is better, even if for every single practical purpose, its completely immeasurable beyond psychosomatic factors.

You're happy, be happy, not stopping you, but the second you call it a lifestyle that others cannot afford, well, enjoy blowing your own horn.

Unless you're absolutely obsessed with audio to a point of insanity, like Carnoobie is about everything in his life, good quality equipment will be fine and AC filters will be a step that gets you nowhere in the grand scheme of things.

Please remember that the same people selling folks AC line filters insist on things like gold plated nitrogen filled HDMI cables (or whatever the newest gimmick is) claiming it enhances picture quality, despite HDMI being a digital signal format where it either transmits information fine or fails with high error rates.

Smart people, (especially smart people who might have a dual trace Tek and a couple of 100 watt non-inductive 8 ohm resistors on hand) can tell the difference between solid electronics and "Ye Olde Stereo Shoppe" hype. There's a lot of "you have 'gifted' ears" just sign the Amex slip here" hype out there.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: Volvohead

What's with all the G.D. hate around here for anyone who aspires to have better quality audio equipment?



Pretty sure the hate is directed at the "holier-than-thou" attitudes, not at the aspirations of people attempting to buy better equipment. And getting back to the original topic, how many audiophiles do you know will bet huge amounts of their own money on a self listening test with filtered vs. non-filtered AC being fed through their own stereo system?
I think everybody knows that a high dollar complete setup will sound better than a $59 setup from Big Lots. The key words here are "high dollar". ROFL.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Some years ago, Stereo Review did a blind AB test . . .


You mean the rag where Julian Hirsch (rip) never met a component or speaker he didn't like? IMO, SR is the Motor Trend of the audio world.

Most audio mags fawn over whoever is paying them the most advertising dollars at the time. Sad but true.


Perhaps you could direct me to a test where the golden eared audiophiles COULD tell the difference beyond random error rates. Yeah, sure. Always blame the messnger, right?

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: westom
Most line conditioning is snake oil. What happens to the best conditioned power? Converted back to 'dirty' power. High frequency noise spikes. Then superior line conditioners already inside electronics convert that even 'dirtiest' power to rock solid DC voltages. Line conditioner only enriched its manufacturer.

'Dirtier' or the 'cleanest' AC power is still converted to same 'dirtiest' power. So what did that line conditioner do? Nothing. Any 'cleaning' is simply converted back to 'dirty' power before being 'cleaned' again. Audiophiles are some of the easist to scam with miracle line conditioners. They only believe salesmen who forget to mention that 'cleaned' power is only made 'dirty' again.

Another example are Monster products. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product for even high prices (higher profits). Because the Monster is more expensve, then so many also recommend that line conditioner - that claims to do near zero 'cleaning'.

If any line conditioner does something useful, then the relevant manufacturer spec number was quote here. No numbers quoted for one simple reason. Numbers often claim 'near zero' performance. But they are marketing to people who only know what advertising, hearsay, and salesmen have said. Who ignore what informed engineers say. They are not marketing to people who actually read the spec numbers.

Line conditioners are recommended mostly by myth and hearsay to the naive. The word snake oil applies. Better line conditioners are already inside every electronic appliance.


What the heck are you talking about? Most of what you just said makes no sense.

I'm not talking about hyped-out Monster stuff from BB. Line conditioning and filtration is legitimate engineering in industrial and commercial applications.

Do an IEEE search, and don't toss the baby with the bath water.

http://powerquality.eaton.com/Products-Services/Power-Conditioning/Default.asp?cx=3&

I'll stand by my advice to the OP that a $30 Isobar might be an good idea on his system front end. You can call it whatever you want.

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig


Perhaps you could direct me to a test where the golden eared audiophiles COULD tell the difference beyond random error rates. Yeah, sure. Always blame the messnger, right?


I don't have a problem with legitimate double-blind testing. Manufacturers do it all the time before committing a prototype to production. I can relate an interesting story involving DB testing, final parts selection, and David Hafler, but that is for another day.

I have a problem using SR for anything resembling competent scientific or engineering authority. Same with all the other mainstream audio rags who favorably review whomever pays them the most ad dollars.

I have a well-equipped bench that can see a lot. But I don't use it to listen to the gear.

 

[97tbird]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
. . . and tons of expensive gear to get the best quality sound and be better then everyone else . . .


What's with all the G.D. hate around here for anyone who aspires to have better quality audio equipment?

People around here spend their money on expensive luxury and sports cars and get applauded. Someone else wants to spend it on audio gear and gets this?

Get over the hate. The fact is more, more expensive equipment sometimes just is better.

The OP's question was legit. He may not require what he might be contemplating, but that's a different issue. Stop diminishing his concern, and his passion, with the tired old stereotypes.

If you can't afford that lifestyle, sorry. No offense, but most of the audio stuff at BB is trash.


+++ People don't understand that just like in cars, homes, oil etc etc there IS [censored] Audio quality and GOOD audio quality...

And it's 'cool' to hate Audiophiles

I don't have ultra $$$ audio gear, i'd say what I have is mid-mild high end separates (Music Hall, Onix Reference, NAD, Parasound), but i sure can tell a difference between mine and some half-arse cheapo system.

BTW., I don't have any line conditioners etc; I do have solidly built cables in the system, which I mainly use for durability purposes - they're just better built than cheap plastic [censored] that you get in the boxes.

 

[Volvohead]

Nice stuff you have. Most of what I listen to anymore is very old unassuming vintage equipment.

Like I mentioned to the OP, I just use some Isobars on the front end to protect the more fragile digital boxes, and contain some of the noise they can blow back into the mains. They're $30 on Amazon and 100x better than the Monster junk sold at the big box. Certainly not "snake oil" if a lighting bolt transient shows up.

Other than basic TVSS, you shouldn't need much more once you reach the amp stages if the product has a well-designed power supply. That last part varies, though.

Still don't understand this broad brush hate against better quality sound equipment. Oh well.

 

[97tbird]

Audio / video quality is not something that's widely discussed here - it's an oil forum, after all, but we do discuss a lot of electronics and phones etc, so I understand your wondering about that in a way...

good Audio is a dying art - Video really did kill the Audio star

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig

I think everybody knows that a high dollar complete setup will sound better than a $59 setup from Big Lots. The key words here are "high dollar". ROFL.


Not necessarily. I've heard some "high-dollar" systems that could give the $59 setup a run for its money.

Seriously, excellent audio need not cost a lot of money at all. Here's the tip of the day: buy used. I too cringe at the folks spending through the nose for the 'lifestyle sound systems' and some of the other stuff that I think dubious. But it's their money to spend. I certainly don't HATE them.

But sometimes a better piece of equipment does cost more money. The most expensive part of any audio instrument is the power supply. It's hard to fake quality iron and good filtering practice and parts selection. The grade of equipment surrounding those power supplies is usually a better investment, too. Not sure if that's "audiophile" or not. But that's where I'll spend more if given the option.

I still don't get how spending a little more money on a better quality product equates to "audiophile" and "snake oil", or hate for that matter.

And someone wanting a better-sounding sound system and spending intelligently to get it is the "lifestyle" I was speaking of.

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: 97tbird
good Audio is a dying art - Video really did kill the Audio star

That is so true.

And the computer and iPod/MP3 era buried it.

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Unless you're absolutely obsessed with audio to a point of insanity, like Carnoobie is about everything in his life . . .


BTW, before I move along, just what/who is "Carnoobie"?
Is that some cartoon or TV character I should know about?

 

[HerrStig]

Many don't "HATE" the "high dollar" audio game, we simply object to, in the end, being told we "can't hear the difference" and "can't afford to buy it it if we could" attitude of the "audiophile". When I'm curious about some new
"high end" audio breakthrough" I run it by a couple of friends who work for a little custom audio shop which supplies the US Navy, formerly known as "Submarine Signal Corporation". There's no bullbleep about the stuff THEY build.

 

[97tbird]

Carnoobie is a member here at bitog. He started some interesting threads, but to have a healthy but somewhat picky taste in audio quality is nothing like what Carnoobies threads' material.

And I agree - I have heard systems that cost 2-3 times more expensive than mine and they sounded mediocre compared to what I have...careful matching of speakers and amp is the key...
I have an excellently neutral amp paired with some very sensitive 2-way 4 ohm monitors... a good combo, very pleasant and punchy to listen to, smooth but sharp enough to reveal krrappy source material.

And every single component of my living room system was bought used. Certainly not what I would call 'high dollar' money. Not at all. People here have desktop computers that total more than my whole audio system, I bet.

again, this might be a waste of time to describe such...

all in all, like most things, different folks have different interests, and some just don't have Audio as an 'interest'/hobby. Like I don't have a hobby about guns. I do NOT go to the gun forum here and say it's a waste of money to get a good gun...

see the point?

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: 97tbird
Carnoobie is a member here at bitog.


Oh. I didn't know that was a member's handle. I apologize then if that is the case.