anyone ever use AC line conditioners?

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But what I recommended was:

"For most folks, something like an Isobar is enough for the typical system"

What exactly is a "Furman"?

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by "superior conditioning" in low end systems. Are you talking about PSU topology? Because I've been into enough of them to know that many of the cheaper instruments have the bare minimum supply capacitance, and with very low quality parts that sometimes do not even meet spec when you measure them. And none offer adequate transient protection over the long-term. I've seen six-month old $79 DVD players blow out their DAC and display stages when someone flipped on an air conditioner in the room from the transient. Too cheap to fix. Good equipment doesn't do that. Cheaper digital instruments are the worst, and many are not tightly regulated or adequately filtered at their supplies. Besides being especially intolerant of line voltage fluctuations, they occasionally are noise generators in their own right. That was the problem I encountered with that Squeezebox (it was blowing HF switching harmonics into outlets ten feet away), and it took a custom-built regulated supply (with about 22,000uf of capacitance) to fully settle it down. They can benefit from extra filtration in some instances, but it's ultimately a case-by-case bench review for each.

They can ALL benefit from extra TVSS protection, which IMO you can never have enough of with today's mains quality.

Not the snake oil kind of product, but a sensible, well engineered product used in industry. An Isobar has been a mainstay in computer and IT applications for decades and has a well-earned reputation as a sturdy, dependable TVSS. You won't find one at the high end salon, and audiophiles don't normally buy them (or the price would quadruple). But they work.

Something has to erode and sacrifice to transients. Better the TVSS and other transient controls than an expensive instrument. Or even a cheap one.

Building durable, robust power supplies is expensive. On quality equipment, the designer will have a little more freedom to do it right. But manufacturers at the margins cut corners on them first to save the most money. Unfortunately, most consumer home electronics is designed closer to the margins these days.
 
Wow, what a mess. I like how complex and personal people get (like vehemently denying they're audiophiles because they somehow got a glean that I hated "audiophiles"...yet persistently having tons of opinions about every detail about audio equipment anyone mentions), but the fact is an AC line conditioner fixes a problem we've yet to be shown exists (actual numbers indicating an AC line has interference or issues that could be considered harmful to equipment accuracy), and it fixes an issue by not demonstrating exactly how it receives, intercepts, and corrects these issues (numbers like attenuation of spurious signals, decibels of attenuation, ability to correct frequency errors and sine clipping, etc).

Look, all this has little to do with audio equipment. The people here who love what they got, perfect. You guys kick [censored]. And the people who are nerds about tube gear, ragin', stuff like that is awesome to appreciate just from a design standpoint in terms of engineering. Its like an electric car is leagues easier to deal with, but a complex ICE is kind of a work of art to appreciate.

The only thing I hate, sincerely, with a passion, is completely ill-informed arguments by people who get iffy and interpersonal just because their pseudo-scientific arguments aren't accepted at face value. People into audio might bark that they have way better power and everything sounds better and rag chew about how cheap and [censored] "normal" people's gear is so they feel superior. People into cars might know "all about" how Top-Tier gas makes their car way better and you're ruining your car with regular. Ricers might know that the K&N filter they installed on a car gives them 15 horsepower and your stock paper filter is a joke...usually the 15 horsepower they get being "because the box said so".

Fact is AC line conditioners are a farce. Without realistic scientific numbers you're not solving anything but the feel-good measure of spending hundreds of dollars on a device that promises something you've never measured by doing something you don't understand. Even if they work, this is completely junk science. That type of thinking is fundamentally damaging and people who understand real science will get genuinely frustrated by the people who push this mantra. Wanna buy gimmicks and try to pull people into the rabbit hole with you? Go for it. But the fact is it has no science behind it.

AC line conditioners are a bad investment. I won't say interference doesn't exist...run anything off a modified sine wave inverter. It'll be pretty obvious there's a big gleaning issue there with almost anything that has some sort of audio output. But that is an exceptionally specialized issue of bad AC line conditions, and even that there is no evidence a "line conditioner" will ever fix it.

Buy a good surge protector: that will save your investment from damage. UPS supplies tend to use modified sine wave inverters, they work good on computers but I wouldn't use one to protect an audio system. If you legitimately have an AC noise issue on a system, you'll know about it, and then you can better explore solutions for the problem.

But the fact is for regular service power supplies the interference you'll get is minimal at best, and the devices you have will be engineered to handle a ton of issues within the device itself: filters that are built and tuned specifically for the device's own known problem spots and harmonics. An AC line conditioner bought at a store is tuned for nothing: it simply sits there and offers you a feeling that its doing something. Can it fix problems? Maybe. But that cannot be pinpointed because there's no documentation on exactly what problems its solving. I had a representative for Monsters own products tell me line conditioners "smooth out" the "ripples of an AC wave", so clearly he was utterly clueless to how electricity fundamentally works. He stopped short of telling me it rectified AC to DC but when I presented that to him I don't think he understood it. I was just assured it "changed the waves into a nice smooth line that enhanced picture quality". Whiskey tango foxtrot.

Unless you're fixing a realistic issue you have, line filters are a "feel good" investment and nothing more. A good line surge protector will protect your gear from power strikes which is a realistic issue.

If you actually develop a real issue with interference and noise, then investigate it. It can range from AC power issues to radio interference and EMF from other gear in your house; isolate the issue and then find a solution. Additional AC line filtering should be a solution, not an investment.
 
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Oh, brother. Here we go again . . .

There are line conditioners, and there are "line conditioners".

The $200 or $300 "line conditioner" sold at BB or the audio salon is almost certainly a dubious product. Rag away on it.

A $30,000 Eaton Power-Sure is a bona fide power conditioner. But you don't use or need one in a residential supply application.

I'll leave the rest of the personal stuff alone.

Please don't get me started on ricers.
 
This thread sure turned into a trainwreck. Needlessly, it would seem.

edit: Personally, I don't see anything particularly wrong with buying something nice. No one aspires to live at the bottom of the barrel.

And I have much less confidence in the quality of built in power supplies than some in this thread seem to have, particularly in inexpensive devices, and some not so inexpensive.
 
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Originally Posted By: Win
And I have much less confidence in the quality of built in power supplies than some in this thread seem to have, particularly in inexpensive devices, and some not so inexpensive.
And that is based in what specification numbers and what design experience? More than 40 years ago, 120 volt electronics were required to withstand 600 volts without damage. Today, that number is even higher. So what causes you concern? Which anomaly is problematic?
 
Originally Posted By: westom
.... Even low end systems internally have superior conditioning. ....


This is your assertion of fact. You prove it.
 
Originally Posted By: Win
This is your assertion of fact. You prove it.
I just did with one anomaly. Which anomaly concerns you?
 
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