Any thoughts on mid SAPS c3 oil in newer direct injection engine

[Vaca]

Just posting to hear your thoughts on using a mid SAPS oil instead of a high SAPS oil in a 2016 VW Passat EA888 Gen 3 engine. This engine is both turbocharged and direct injection.

Both the owner's manual and the underhood sticker states VW 502 oil spec.

Here are are two US market oils that both meet the required VW 502 spec (needed to be safe with the new car warranty).

The very common Mobil1 0w-40 FS which is a high SAPS oil

and the oil I am considering changing to Castrol 5w-30 c3 which is a mid SAPS oil (
My understanding is that the lower SAPS oil would be better than the higher SAPS oil for a couple reasons such as lower chance of cat poisoning, lower chance of intake valve deposits and lower chance of LSPI.

The only two negatives I can think of is the lower SAPs oil has lower TBN and would be susceptible to quicker degradation if subjected to higher sulfur gasoline (and might therefor require shorter drain interval) and this lower SAPS oil costs a bit more than the cheap Mobil1 0w-40.

I know that a lot of people say the engine will last forever and the car will rust away before the engine goes, etc. But I want to be sure this engine lasts a long time without unreasonable maintenance such as cleaning the intake valves or replacing the cat, etc. Also, I like reasonably long oil change intervals. Owner's manual states 10,000 miles, and I've been going between 8000 and 10,000 miles and would like to continue that if I make the change to the Castrol 5w-30 C3 mid SAPS oil.

Any thoughts or ideas? Am I off base here or splitting a hair too fine?

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Your understanding is mostly correct. The 504 spec is more robust, high quality, more stringent spec. I think whether or not it will lead to lower carbon buildup has merit in theory but remains to be seen in practice. Both oils will handle your oil change interval but 504 will do it much more easily assuming you have low sulfur fuel environment.

 

[Vaca]

Yeah, neither oil is VW 504, but the Castrol C3 is MB 229.51 and the Mobil1 0w40 is 229.5. I think the MB standards are pretty good. Do you know if the VW 504 standard is better or significantly different than the MB 229.51?

Thanks.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Ok I just assumed the Castrol was 504, sorry. I don't know the exact requirements of each spec but it's common for oils to carry both 504 and 229.51, so they're probably similar. If that particular Castrol doesn't have 504 it is probably because the Professional LL03 does instead. However if it was my car and it's still under warranty I would use something 502 or 504 rated. If not under warranty I don't think either of those oils will make much real tangible difference with an 8k OCI.

 

[Vaca]

Both of the oils I'm talking about are VW 502 and are good for the car's warranty.

I really thought the lower SAPs oil would be better than the high SAPS oil as far as intake valve deposits, cat poisoning and LSPI are concerned.

 

[Kjmack]

Originally Posted by Vaca
Both of the oils I'm talking about are VW 502 and are good for the car's warranty.

I really thought the lower SAPs oil would be better than the high SAPS oil as far as intake valve deposits, cat poisoning and LSPI are concerned.

The Castrol c3 is not 502 . Sorry I guess it is , Pennzoils has a 504 Ow30 though

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

There's a mid SAPS 5w30 502 that also has 229.51? This is like unicorn tears this stuff. lol

You are right in that mid SAPS is theoretically better with valve deposits and for cats, and with 229.51 on there it should be pretty low noack. I don't believe it will help LSPI much unless you are getting a serious amount of oil back into the intake tract. German cars seem to have very little problem with LSPI compared to US or Korean DI cars.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by Vaca
Both of the oils I'm talking about are VW 502 and are good for the car's warranty.

I really thought the lower SAPs oil would be better than the high SAPS oil as far as intake valve deposits, cat poisoning and LSPI are concerned.



Not all turbo 4 cylinder engines are impacted by LSPI. The euro makes appear to be immune from the problem. C3 (BMW LL04, VW 504/507, MB 229.51) oils have been around since 2004 and brought to the US circa 2009 with full conversion to ULSD.

 

[Vaca]

Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
There's a mid SAPS 5w30 502 that also has 229.51? This is like unicorn tears this stuff. lol


This is copy and paste from Amazon...MB 229.31/229.51 AND VW 502 00/505 00/505 01



Castrol 03559 EDGE 5W-30 C3 Advanced Full Synthetic Motor Oil, 5 quart, 3 Pack
by Castrol

Advanced premium full synthetic motor oil to offer strength under extreme pressure
Titanium strong for maximum engine performance
Reduces metal-to-metal contact across a range of different driving speeds
Protects the engine for the entire drain interval even under extreme pressure
Decreases engine deposit formation to help maximize engine response
Best full synthetic money can buy
API SN/CF, ACEA C3, BMW Longlife-04 , GM dexos2, MB - Approval 229.31/229.51, Renault RN 0700/0710 , VW 502 00/505 00/505 01

 

[Vaca]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
C3 (BMW LL04, VW 504/507, MB 229.51) oils have been around since 2004 and brought to the US circa 2009 with full conversion to ULSD.


I wonder why my 2016 Passat owner's manual and underhood sticker state 502 00?

 

[oil_film_movies]

I think Vaca has it right. Sulphur levels are dropping in PA, and any 229.51 or 504 low saps stuff will be fine these days. There is a chance of less valve deposits as well, concur.
Recommending 5w30 Mobil1 ESP, or any name-brand 504 oil.

 

[Kjmack]

Originally Posted by Vaca
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
C3 (BMW LL04, VW 504/507, MB 229.51) oils have been around since 2004 and brought to the US circa 2009 with full conversion to ULSD.


I wonder why my 2016 Passat owner's manual and underhood sticker state 502 00?

2017 manual also and under hood sticker

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Originally Posted by Vaca
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
C3 (BMW LL04, VW 504/507, MB 229.51) oils have been around since 2004 and brought to the US circa 2009 with full conversion to ULSD.


I wonder why my 2016 Passat owner's manual and underhood sticker state 502 00?


All VAG (gasoline) was using 502 in North America because we weren't low sulfur fuel until 2017. So they are in the process now of switching new cars to 504 (and a new 508) spec oils.

 

[Vaca]

Then I guess if low sulfur gasoline is here to stay in the US, then there is no good reason to run a high SAPS oil.

I think I'm going to start using that lower SAPS Castrol 5w-30 C3 oil that is VW 502 certified (for warranty) in the 2016 Passat instead of the Mobil1 0w-40 FS that I've been using. It's on sale at NAPA online right now for 8 bucks a quart with free shipping. 7 quarts, less than $60 for another 10,000 miles.

 

[Patman]

IMO the lower SAPS are better, which is why I'm running Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w30 in my direct injected Corvette. If I follow the oil life monitor it really won't let me go much beyond 7500 miles anyways, so I don't need the higher TBN oils, and I feel oils like this will keep the engine deposits lower in the long run.

 

[Vaca]

Yeah, Patman, it seems like there isn't much of a downside, but possibly a benefit if it reduces deposits and also lessens chance of LSPI in the future. Might be especially beneficial as the miles accumulate.

 

[Kjmack]

There was a UOA recently showing very good results with Pennzoil Euro lx 0w30 from another VW owner . I believe it's a 504 oil .

 

[Vaca]

That's reassuring that there's a good UOA for that 504 oil. I couldn't find any for the Castrol 5w30 C3 that I'm considering. If I go with this oil, I may pull a sample at 5000 miles and send to Blackstone to see how it's holding up. I'm pretty confident that the gasoline around here in PA is low sulfur so it should be good for the full 10,000 mile interval I intend to run.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Vaca, Patman's Mobil1 ESP 5w30 is a lot like the latest Corvette's Mobil1 ESP 0w40 GM recommendation, and all in the 'ESP' family is related, probably closely. Bottom line, those are high performance oils, although only the 5w30 one there officially has all the German specs, technically.
In the winter, there is the VW 504 Mobil1 ESP 0w30 at PepBoys and Advance Autoparts. Amazon has the 5w30. Easy to get.

 

[JOD]

Here are two reports on mine--same engine, but the second one is after a stage 1 tune, which increased fuel dilution a bit: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...alltrack-5011-miles-apr-tune#Post4976573

I'd be totally comfortable going 10K with a lot of highway driving, or 7.5K with mixed driving, on a low-saps oil in this engine with the stock tune. I don't know if the low sap oil will help intake deposits or not, but I'm hedging that it might. Eventually I'm sure I will have to remove the IM and clean it, but if it buys me an extra 20-30K before I have to do it, then great. If not, not biggie.

One nice thing about this engine is that with the stock tune, there is practically no fuel dilution if you aren't short-tripping it to death.