Any Home Electricians Here?

[tony1679]

Let me start by saying I'm obviously not an electrician, but I figured this is something with an easy answer. I may not know a lot, but unlike many, I know how NOT to get into trouble with electricity.

I am remodeling my kitchen. The house was built in '61. Previously there was drop ceiling with 8' flourescent lighting. Disgusting. That's all history. Now I am trying to install 4 recessed led lights to the remaining old wiring with a single dimmer.

Details: the old circuit consists of 12/2 romex on a 20 amp breaker. The old switch was removed, however that's what is throwing a wrench in my thought process. When I removed the old switch, there was only one white and one black wire attached. The ground wire was not connected to anything and remained within the wire insulation. Not sure what to make of that. My guess is this is "wired hot" but the dimmer I bought specifically states "do NOT wire hot."

My key question however is how to wire the light "cans" to the old circuit. WAIT, let me explain. I know how to wire them together in parallel. White to white, black to black, and ground to ground. I'll be using 12/2 for these as well. I'm unsure how the circuit is ran (a.k.a. it could be breaker>switch>lights or switch>breaker>lights, etc. But considering the switch only has a single 12/2 attached I'm assuming it is switch>lights>breaker

). With that in mind, how does the first can (the one closest to the junction box) attach to the two 12/2 wires in the junction box?

I'm assuming the same applies? All 3 B-B, W-W, G-G?
I think that's right in "normal" circumstances, but the switch not utilizing a ground is throwing me off.

To help summarize I'll number the questions:
1. Is the lack of ground at the switch ok/normal?
2. Is this circuit "wired hot"?
3. How do the recessed lights attach to 12/2 in junction box?

Sorry for the novel, but i figured more info was helpful. Any help or input is appreciated.

 

[bullwinkle]

Normally all the whites (neutral) & green grounds are tied together, & the black goes from the fuse/circuit breaker to the switch input, then from the switch output to each light-not sure what they did there?

 

[The_Jeff]

If you send power to the ceiling light box and then to the switch, you're "supposed" to wrap the white with a black tape ring. There'll be a wire nut NOT connected to the light, just lingering in the box, and it's tradition if not code to connect the fuse's black to the switches white-with-black ring, then the black coming back from the switch to the light. Naturally you have to suspect work that's over 50 years old.

Do you have drywall in the way of seeing the wiring between ceiling and switch? Are you at the stage in the remodel when the studs are exposed and the work is easy?

Do you have anything else in the vicinity of the switch box that can donate a neutral?

 

[tony1679]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
If you send power to the ceiling light box and then to the switch, you're "supposed" to wrap the white with a black tape ring. There'll be a wire nut NOT connected to the light, just lingering in the box, and it's tradition if not code to connect the fuse's black to the switches white-with-black ring, then the black coming back from the switch to the light. Naturally you have to suspect work that's over 50 years old.

Do you have drywall in the way of seeing the wiring between ceiling and switch? Are you at the stage in the remodel when the studs are exposed and the work is easy?

Do you have anything else in the vicinity of the switch box that can donate a neutral?

I do have easy access to the attic, new drywall is already in place. Regarding a donor neutral, the attic is a #@%$!?& snake farm. I wouldn't dare try to figure out what is going on with the other wiring. Future wiring plans: rip everything out and start over. This is temporary until funding allows for that plan.

 

[The_Jeff]

Can you get some romex from the attic (eg one of your ceiling light boxes) to your switch box to do it right?

I find it hard to believe you're sewing up the drywall yet claiming the wiring will be temporary.

 

[tony1679]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Can you get some romex from the attic (eg one of your ceiling light boxes) to your switch box to do it right?

I find it hard to believe you're sewing up the drywall yet claiming the wiring will be temporary.
Yes the switch box is easily accessible to run wire from above. But idk what would be involved to do it right.

And yes, this will be permanently in place until the whole house is re-wired (by a real electrician). Therefore it is temporary. This is the first of many rooms I will be remodeling. Lesson learned, the wiring in this house is fubar'd. Found this out after I started demolishing the ceiling.

 

[The_Jeff]

Run another wire down to the switch box, make the existing wire always hot. You'll wire nut black to black, white to white, ground to ground in the ceiling box going back to the fusebox.

Then the dimmer will have all it needs, and the new wire will be the switched feed. You can run it to any of your pot lights and then from there parallel it to the rest of them.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Semi off topic ( sorry) Though considered UGLY, I like fluorescent in the kitchen - gives a better diffuse light in the workspace. My spouse wants the fluorescent removed and track LED lighting put up, but I have fended off this project - for now

Aloing with thr ridiculous and omnipresent request for troublesome Granite counter tops an St Steel appliances. Very Silly American nouveau riche upgrade balogna.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Semi off topic ( sorry) Though considered UGLY, I like fluorescent in the kitchen - gives a better diffuse light in the workspace. My spouse wants the fluorescent removed and track LED lighting put up, but I have fended off this project - for now

Aloing with thr ridiculous and omnipresent request for troublesome Granite counter tops an St Steel appliances. Very Silly American nouveau riche upgrade balogna.


Fluorescent in the kitchen is a housing code thing here. Might have been a NEC (national electric code) recommendation which is why you see them everywhere.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

You do have adequate home owners insurance, right? Remodeling requires a building permit and inspection by your city's/county's building inspector to determine if new work is up to the latests codes. You did take out a building permit? I'm sure Oklahoma is as up to date as Nebraska when it comes to residential construction. Just basing that on past football encounters with OU. Your entire electrical system will have to brought up to the current codes. .You are replacing much better lighting than you are putting in. I totally agree with ARCO.

 

[The_Jeff]

Originally Posted By: HosteenJorje
Remodeling requires a building permit and inspection by your city's/county's building inspector to determine if new work is up to the latests codes.


Enforcement is all over the map for this. They might not care as long as he doesn't change the footprint of the house.

 

[Wolf359]

This varies all over the country and even by town. Ever see that electrical aisle at Home Depot and Lowes? They're not selling to mostly electricians. As a real estate broker, I see homeowners do their own electrical work all the time. The dead giveaway is the fact that they don't nail the wires every 18 inches to 2 feet, can't remember exactly what it is. Their work is typically sloppy. I've seen homeowners put in their own electrical panels!

Also with respect to bringing up everything to code, there's usually some kind of threshold for that. If you're doing minor work, they don't require it, maybe just meet code for the circuit you're putting in, but if it's a big job, they might want you to update everything. The way around it is to do things in stages so it doesn't trigger that threshold.

 

[SHOZ]

The original switched wire was just a hot going to the switch and then they used the white wire for hot going from the switch and to the old lamp. At the old lamp is where the neutral is picked up at.

Lack of ground (green) at the switch is OK but new code would require it. Lack of neutral at the switch is normal.

Wired hot means the neutral is switched and the actual lamps are wired hot all the time, common in DC circuits.

 

[tony1679]

So I forgot to mention that there is a single outlet attached to this circuit as well. This outlet is verified grounded. I have also learned that the dimmer does require 12/3, so the 12/2 currently in place will have to be replaced. The more I look into this, the more I lose confidence in myself to do this. Idk which side is going to win, my stubborn or sensible side.

Thanks to everyone for the help and advice. I will keep researching and reading this thread...

 

[1 FMF]

maybe things are slower to catch on where you are but with copper prices everything today is 14 gauge not 12 gauge, and it's a gray area with the NEC. if you pay for a permit thus paying homage to the bldg inspector and your local gov't then "whatever" a license electrician does is accepted. when you don't even if you do it better than an electrician following codes they may still find you at fault one way or another. for doing minor stuff like a few new lights not a big deal, but be aware if you are doing an obvious major remodel especially if any kind of "addition" that you need to get a permit pulled because it will likely come back to haunt you especially when you sell the place. guy i knew who i would say was not incompetent, did major update to his place where he got a large dumpster for throwing out carpet, drywall and stuff like that and he was doing new drywall and some electrical stuff... the dumpster with stuff like that in plain sight is an obvious flag to town inspectors and he got nabbed, inspected, and they made him tear down all the drywall he put up to inspect electrical and whatever else because he did not have a permit pulled. so judge for yourself, if it's a simple upgrade with a drop ceiling or easy access so if you are questioned about a permit if they can easily inspect wiring you will most likely be fine, but if it's a major remodel where everything is hidden within walls and drywall you take your chances. for something where you replaced existing lighting and did not run new wiring and only replaced a wall switch... generally not a problem it's when you add new wiring and significant lighting/outlets/appliances. and when you do updates, if you add 1x/3 wiring with the green ground, and things like gfi then your usually that much safer all around... also where is this outlet, which is in the kitchen?

typically 15 amp circuit breaker uses 14 gauge and 20 amp uses 12 gauge. if you keep your 20 amp breaker then to be "within code" you would need to use 12 gauge wire everywhere in the circuit. if you decide to go with 14 gauge wire then all you need to do is assess what's on the circuit- use a 15 amp breaker and make sure your wall outlet is a 15 amp style outlet and not a 20 amp one.

all new switches outlets and stuff are built now to have 14 gauge wire plug into the little hole, a 12 gauge wire is too thick and won't fit. regarding how to wire up the dimmer with the lights it is straight forward and i would look at the instructions with the dimmer to know how it's supposed to be wired.
the multiple wires coming out of some styles of dimmers are meant to be used in a 3-way application where you have black and red wires as opposed to the normal black (hot) white (neutral).
one or more wires will be your pass thru "undimmed" wire that goes to your wall outlet hanging off the circuit.
again, with a new dimmer especially if it's electronic look at the instructions, and also make sure it's rated in wattage to handle the amount of power to be drawn by all your lights... don't use a 100w dimmer for instance when you have something like 2+ 75 watt lights on the circuit.
post the make/model of your dimmer.

 

[tony1679]

My dimmer comes with a wiring diagram. Yes, it utilizes a red wire, which I assume requires 12/3, even if I'm not installing a second dimmer or switch. Dimmer handles up to 600W, so no worries with only 52W on the new lights. I'm leaving all the other wiring alone (12/2). No worries about permits, I already looked into that.

However, a new (unrelated) thought just crossed my mind. There were a total of six 8' flourescent lights (3 sets of 2) up there previously. I also had my 1100W microwave plugged into the outlet on that circuit. I never had a problem before, and I am only lowering the wattage used by the lights. But would I have any issues regarding overloading or incompatibility with the dimmer? The new lights (led) use 13W (x4). I would like to use the same outlet, but if there will be problems, I can easily use another outlet.

 

[SHOZ]

8' x 2 T12 fluorescent fixture is around 160w each.

 

[The_Jeff]

Microwaves love their own circuit, but lights won't be the end of the world, especially 50 watts worth.

Modern code, if you were building a new kitchen from scratch, wants 2x 20 amp circuits for outlets and a 3rd exclusively for lights, so if you start a fire and blow a fuse you can still see where you are.

can you post the model of your dimmer so we can pull a pdf of its instructions? I doubt you need 12/3, which is used for 3-way setups.

 

[SHOZ]

Very few outlets are rated 20a. It is permissible to run a 20a feeder wire from the circuit breaker and then branch off that to a 15a wire to feed the outlet.

 

[tony1679]

Sorry for the delay, been having fun with joint compound...

Well I would post the link to my dimmer, however Lowe's website refuses to stay in desktop mode (I'm on a phone). So here's the best I can do:

http://www.lowes.com

In the search bar type this item #:

480242

Thanks for all the help!