Any harm from Motul 300v?

[Hujan]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I own a BMW E92 M3 with a high-revving V8 engine. The car is no longer my DD and will now be driven approximately 3000 miles per year. Most of those miles will consist of recreational driving, including track time on road courses. The car will go long gaps between driving (1-2 weeks). I plan to change the oil every 5k miles or 12 months, whichever comes first.

I've already made the decision to abandon the factory Castrol TWS Edge Professional 10w-60. I'm not here to discuss that decision and don't want it to distract from my question. I will simply say that, in my opinion and in the opinion of many people whom I respect, the rod bearing clearances on this car are extremely tight and I agree with the many people who have moved to a thinner oil as a remedy for this issue.

Most E92 M3 owners who have abandoned the Castrol TWS have moved to Mobil 1 0w-40. I ran that oil in this car for 5000 miles without incident and found the cold starts were noticeably smoother and quieter, the engine revved more freely, and that the oil warmed up to operational temp (210 F) more quickly.

I've considered sticking with that oil and adding a bottle of Liqui Moly MS02 (since the M1 is low on moly). My only concern with Mobil 1 0w-40 is that it is on the thin side for a 40 weight and I worry it may not be up to task at the track for a high-revving V8 in the M3.

I've been reading a lot about Motul 300v, specifically their 0w-40 or 5w-40. I realize that there is probably little real-world difference between the M1 and the Motul 300v, and that many people will simply say to stick with the M1 just based on price alone. But given the infrequency with which I will drive the car and the abuse the engine will take when I do, I don't mind shelling out the extra cash for the Motul for even a marginal benefit over the M1.

My question, though, is whether there's any chance that the Motul 300v could actually harm my engine relative to the M1. For example, is there any concer that the esters in the 300v will harm the seals in my engine or is that not a realistic concern? Similarly, will the 300v be significantly worse at dealing with fuel dilution than the M1, and if so, when does that become a concern?

Ultimately, if the answer is that 300v will be no more harmful to the Rhine than the M1 and *may* in fact confer a benefit (however small) I will probably go with the 300v. But if the 300v might give rise to issues the M1 won't, I'll have to re-evaluate.

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance to anyone who offers any insight.

 

[deven]

The 300V will serve you just fine. We have torn apart many an engines on 300V and never seen any seals being harmed. The esters are actually good for engines that are not driven daily as they tend to cling to metal parts longer than say PAO oils. It's an excellent choice and one you'll love.

 

[A_Harman]

If you are considering Motul 300V, why not Redline? It's also ester-based, has a boatload of Moly, is more readily available on the US (made in Ca), and is a couple of dollars less per quart than the Motul. In SoCal, a 5w40 or 10w40 would be just fine.

 

[bluesubie]

Cold starts in San Diego? That's cute.

I'd probably run the 10W40.


Originally Posted By: deven
The 300V will serve you just fine. We have torn apart many an engines on 300V and never seen any seals being harmed. The esters are actually good for engines that are not driven daily as they tend to cling to metal parts longer than say PAO oils. It's an excellent choice and one you'll love.

 

[d00df00d]

to BITOG!

Highly unlikely that the 300V will cause "harm," in the sense that you're unlikely to see any issues that you might not have seen with any other oil. Unfortunately, there's no realistic way to tell whether it'll be tangibly better or worse than Mobil 1 0w-40 in your application. The one difference you could possibly assess is if your oil temps and pressures are any different with either oil. But as long as neither is in a critical range, picking between the two is just guesswork.

The main potential downside I can see is that most formulations of 300V probably won't be very nice to your emissions equipment. They have tended to use very heavy additive packages, which generally means they're not nice when they burn. But again, it's hard to tell whether that'd make a significant difference in your application.

 

[OVERKILL]

Just a note but the Moly level in M1 0w-40 isn't low. It is purported to use Infineum's tri-nuclear moly, which is much more effective than traditional moly and requires a much lower treat rate.

Adding MOS2 to the product would be of no benefit.

Also, this product is used by numerous OEM race teams so I wouldn't be concerned about it not holding up on the track.

I don't see an upside to spending significantly more money on an oil that will likely prove of no benefit in application.

 

[05LGTLtd]

If M1 0w40 is a bit thin for your taste, anyone running TDT or T6 in these?

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I would prefer diester 300v or POE RL over adding the solid particulate LiquiMoly - Likely keep the rings freer of deposits as gum can agglomerate even micro solids, and, as even high MoDTC oils fail SAE TEOST deposit test. Now this maybe more of a concern in turbo engine hot spots, or some here rightly ignore deposits if they have some lubricity in boundary conditions on tight clearance parts.
Just some points of interest in your decision making

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Hujan
Long time lurker, first time poster.

I own a BMW E92 M3 with a high-revving V8 engine. The car is no longer my DD and will now be driven approximately 3000 miles per year. Most of those miles will consist of recreational driving, including track time on road courses. The car will go long gaps between driving (1-2 weeks). I plan to change the oil every 5k miles or 12 months, whichever comes first.

I've already made the decision to abandon the factory Castrol TWS Edge Professional 10w-60. I'm not here to discuss that decision and don't want it to distract from my question. I will simply say that, in my opinion and in the opinion of many people whom I respect, the rod bearing clearances on this car are extremely tight and I agree with the many people who have moved to a thinner oil as a remedy for this issue.

Most E92 M3 owners who have abandoned the Castrol TWS have moved to Mobil 1 0w-40. I ran that oil in this car for 5000 miles without incident and found the cold starts were noticeably smoother and quieter, the engine revved more freely, and that the oil warmed up to operational temp (210 F) more quickly.

I've considered sticking with that oil and adding a bottle of Liqui Moly MS02 (since the M1 is low on moly). My only concern with Mobil 1 0w-40 is that it is on the thin side for a 40 weight and I worry it may not be up to task at the track for a high-revving V8 in the M3.

I've been reading a lot about Motul 300v, specifically their 0w-40 or 5w-40. I realize that there is probably little real-world difference between the M1 and the Motul 300v, and that many people will simply say to stick with the M1 just based on price alone. But given the infrequency with which I will drive the car and the abuse the engine will take when I do, I don't mind shelling out the extra cash for the Motul for even a marginal benefit over the M1.

My question, though, is whether there's any chance that the Motul 300v could actually harm my engine relative to the M1. For example, is there any concer that the esters in the 300v will harm the seals in my engine or is that not a realistic concern? Similarly, will the 300v be significantly worse at dealing with fuel dilution than the M1, and if so, when does that become a concern?

Ultimately, if the answer is that 300v will be no more harmful to the Rhine than the M1 and *may* in fact confer a benefit (however small) I will probably go with the 300v. But if the 300v might give rise to issues the M1 won't, I'll have to re-evaluate.

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance to anyone who offers any insight.
That's a question for the BMW engine designers, not random axe grinders on the web.

 

[Rand]

m1 0w40, their type of moly typically requires a much lower amount than other types of moly.

Would not use any additives.

 

[dparm]

Hey Hujan,

Fellow M3 owner here (2011.5 sedan, ZCP).

There's tons of speculation around this on sites like M3post. Castrol TWS was already an ester-based oil, even in its later formulations, so I see no reason why 300V would cause harm in that regard. I don't see any reason to add MoS2 since 300V is already a very stout formula.

I would personally run the 5w40 since you've said you'll be running the car on the track. 300V 5w40 is closer in operational viscosity to the original TWS (HTHSV of around 4.5 after stabilization).

My advice would be to try the 5w40 and see how it performs. You can always thin it out by blending the 0w40 and 5w40 the next time, or thicken it by blending 5w40 and 10w40 instead.

I still use TWS/TwinPower because the car is under a BMW EVP warranty and I don't really want to get into an argument with them should something happen.


For what it's worth, I ran 300V in my old Audi S4 for many years and every analysis came back very clean. I didn't have any problems with weeping gaskets, blowby, or falling compression. I also didn't have any issues with the plastic timing chain guides, which was happening to a small percentage of the motors as they aged. Did the 300V help with that? Maybe.

PS -- please post a photo of your car!

 

[BrocLuno]

All the Motul products I have used are superb. My experience has been with race bikes, but I see no reason you should be concerned ...

 

[Leonardo629]

Whatever you can get your hands on for cheaper, a fellow E9x M3 member on m3post.com runs Redline 5W40 with great UOA results, and he tracks his M3.

Did you get a M1 UOA showing M1 to be inadequate? I mean M1 0W40 is the factory fill for 911 GT3/GT3 RS, and those P-cars live on the tracks.

 

[deven]

Originally Posted By: bluesubie

Cold starts in San Diego? That's cute.

I'd probably run the 10W40.


Originally Posted By: deven
The 300V will serve you just fine. We have torn apart many an engines on 300V and never seen any seals being harmed. The esters are actually good for engines that are not driven daily as they tend to cling to metal parts longer than say PAO oils. It's an excellent choice and one you'll love.

Where did I say cold starts? The OP said he may put only a few miles every year so I mentioned that esters cling to metal parts longer so if he only started the car say once a week, esters would actually be beneficial.

 

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: bluesubie

Cold starts in San Diego? That's cute.

I'd probably run the 10W40.


Originally Posted By: deven
The 300V will serve you just fine. We have torn apart many an engines on 300V and never seen any seals being harmed. The esters are actually good for engines that are not driven daily as they tend to cling to metal parts longer than say PAO oils. It's an excellent choice and one you'll love.

Where did I say cold starts? The OP said he may put only a few miles every year so I mentioned that esters cling to metal parts longer so if he only started the car say once a week, esters would actually be beneficial.

Not you. The original poster. That's why I made my initial comment about cold starts first and then quoted your reply and agreed to it.

Guess I should have quoted him first and responded to that and then quoted you but I was taking a shortcut!

 

[Hujan]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone. I really appreciate the feedback. And thanks also to those of you for welcoming me to the board.

It sounds like the consensus is that Motul 300v will either offer no real benefit over M1 or may add a marginal benefit, but in either case won't be detrimental to my engine relative to M1 other than by (perhaps needlessly) lightening my wallet.

This board doesn't seem to have a multi-quote feature (or at least I can find it) so I'll have to reply to each of you the old fashioned way:

Deven: Thanks for mentioning the fact that esters are reputed to "cling" to the metal parts. That is something that attracted (pun intended) to ester-based oils like Motul, and to a lesser extent, Redline. Assuming that property is true of those oils, that is a big factor in my desire to switch up now that I won't be driving the car five times a week. Starts on the Castrol TWS after the car has been sitting for some time are very rough, to put it mildly.

A_Harman: Thanks for your reply. I actually looked at Redline first. I really like the look of Redline on paper, like that is made here in CA, and is a bit cheaper than Motul. But, a couple of people in the industry with whom I've spoken and whose opinions I respect, had very negative impressions of Redline oils as a general matter. And even on BITOG I've read a few people have concerns about the veracity of what they report. And if I'm being honest, their specs seem a little too good to be true.

Yet it seems that no one doubts or denies the quality of Motul oils. Everyone seems to regard them as excellent oils with the only knock that they may be "overkill" for one application or another. Motul thus seemed to me to be the safest choice among the ester-based, boutique oils, at least from a controversy standpoint. But I agree, Redline looks like great stuff on paper.

bluesubie: Ha, yes, San Diego doesn't compare to New Jersey in the weather department. For what it's worth, I actually live at a little altitude (~1,000 ft.) in the northeast of San Diego far from the coast. As a result, the overnight and early morning temps in the winter dip into the low 30s. In any event, when I said "cold start" I meant when the engine has been sitting and all the fluids are at ambient temp, not "cold" in a subjective sense. I sense that you knew that and were pulling my leg a bit, which I appreciate.

doodf00d: Thanks for pointing that out. I assume you're referring to the levels of zinc and phosphorous in the oil? I understand that they can clog the cats from oil burn-off. I considered that factor, but suffice it to say I'm not worried about the emissions equipment on my car.

OVERKILL/Rand: Thanks for that information about the moly in M1 0w-40. I honestly did not know that the moly in that oil was more effective, pound for pound, than "normal" moly. I was just going off of counts in VOAs for M1 that I'd reviewed. Good to know!

OVERKILL/Leonardo629: I appreciate your comments. Of course you guys are right that M1 0w-40 is an excellent oil and sees some serious abuse. I especially like that it is spec'd in the GT3/GT3RS, given the high-revving nature of those engines. (I tend to believe that cars seeing north of 8k RPM place more stress on their oil than other cars.)

My concern with M1 0w-40 is that it is already thin for a 40-weight oil and I've read some information that, by the end of interval, it sheers down significantly. I've seen some UOAs of 0w-40 that would cause me a little concern about its ability to protect the engine toward the end of the oil-change interval. And the interval was not extremely long, either. But, like I said, this is less about the adequacy of M1 0w-40 than it is about the potential slight benefits of running a higher-priced oil in Motul 300v.

OVERKILL, I had to chuckle at the irony of you recommending against Motul 300v on the grounds that it would be overkill for my application given your name. I'd think if anyone you'd understand what that's all about!

ARCOgraphite: Thanks for this information. Just to clarify, though, I wasn't intending to run the MOS2 with the Motul (or Redline), just the Mobil 1. If M1 truly was deficient in moly and it was necessary to rely on MOS2 to augment the oil, the difference you pointed out would be another benefit to the Motul over the M1. But based on what OVERKILL and Rand said, it appears that the MOS2 is not necessary with the M1, which makes this a nonissue.

dparm: Thanks for your comments. I am actually active on M3Post under the same username. I believe we may have corresponded in some oil threads on that site before. I've read your posts both on here and on M3Post and find them informative and helpful, so thank you.

Good point on the ester in the original TWS. I hadn't considered that, which gives me peace of mind about running the Motul. I believe the HTHSV of the Motul 300v 5w-40 is around 4.1. I worry that the 3.8 HTHSV of fresh 0w-40 is a touch on the low side for the E92 M3. My plan was to start with 5w-40, run it for 3k miles, do a Blackstone analysis, then adjust from there.

I definitely haven't posted many pics of my car on M3Post. But I plan to get around to that soon.

 

[dailydriver]

The only real advantage the M1 0W-40 has over anything in the 300V line up (besides price/availibility) is it's starting TBN, and SN and many Euro certifications which basically guarantee it will not harm any emissions systems, even if there is some blow by.

Again, this is ONLY if the above is important/necessary for your use.

Despite their relatively low starting TBNs (~8.2 vs. ~11.8 for M1 0W-40), Motul still claims at least a "medium" resistance to fuel dilution for it's xW-40 300V oils.

 

[dgunay]

I'd use M1 0W40 and call it a day.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
The only real advantage the M1 0W-40 has over anything in the 300V line up (besides price/availibility) is it's starting TBN, and SN and many Euro certifications which basically guarantee it will not harm any emissions systems, even if there is some blow by.

Again, this is ONLY if the above is important/necessary for your use.

Despite their relatively low starting TBNs (~8.2 vs. ~11.8 for M1 0W-40), Motul still claims at least a "medium" resistance to fuel dilution for it's xW-40 300V oils.



Fuel dilution and lower TBN shouldn't be a huge issue for OP, as he isn't running long change intervals or idling excessively (nor in very cold weather). His sump is also about 9 quarts so he has a LOT of oil for any fuel to really start diluting.

 

[bobbydavro]

Esters may cling, but they wont maintain oil pressure which is what bearings need. Certainly moving to a thinner oil will help bearings get pressure sooner but dont forget the 10W-60 is almost a 5W already.

'I will simply say that, in my opinion and in the opinion of many people whom I respect, the rod bearing clearances on this car are extremely tight and I agree with the many people who have moved to a thinner oil as a remedy for this issue. '

What is the issue with this? sorry I've not really read much about this engine / oil on the forums.