been using antisieze on lugnuts for years, NEVER a problem. Most of my customers are repeat,,mostly doing myself a favor.
Bob
Bob
antisieze compound on lugnuts??
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I have had a aluminum wheel stick to a steel hub before, and it wasn't fun. Since then, it's a big ol' dose of antiseize on everything in the wheel to hub area. Never any problems, lugs are always on as tight as I left them. And it seems to reduce rust and oxidation where I've applied it too.
I wouldn't use it on the lug threads, makes it too easy to overtorque and create other problems. The mating faces of the (aluminum) wheel and hub are the right place to use antiseize.
FWIW, if you have issues with lug nuts seizing, you're probably not inspecting your brakes or rotating your tires often enough...
Boat trailers, construction/ag equipment and other specialty applications would be different...
FWIW, if you have issues with lug nuts seizing, you're probably not inspecting your brakes or rotating your tires often enough...
Boat trailers, construction/ag equipment and other specialty applications would be different...
Kestas
Staff member
... or inspecting them too much, and thus wearing the Dacromet coating off the wheel bolts. Dacromet coating is very similar to antiseize compound, except that the carrier for the metal flakes is an organic paint rather than a petroleum lube.
Just a couple of comments.
-What you really want in a bolted joint is clamp load. This is accomplished by bolt stretch. A large percentage of the torque is used just to overcome friction. The remaining part is used for bolt stretch. By adding lube to the threads, you change this percentage and actually increase the bolt stretch. This becomes critical if you have a bolt that is close to it's yeild strength. In general, bolted fasteners are not meant to be lubed with out specific development the joint and the appropriate torque value. The standard torques are different for plain, phosphate coated and zinc dichromate, and dortec bolts because of the different frictional properties of the bolts.
-as far as aluminum wheels sticking to steel hubs. This is due to by-metal corrosion. I don't know the exact chemistry of it but I think it is a little different than oxidation.
-IMO one should always uses a torque wrench on wheel lug nuts and not use lube. FWIW.
-What you really want in a bolted joint is clamp load. This is accomplished by bolt stretch. A large percentage of the torque is used just to overcome friction. The remaining part is used for bolt stretch. By adding lube to the threads, you change this percentage and actually increase the bolt stretch. This becomes critical if you have a bolt that is close to it's yeild strength. In general, bolted fasteners are not meant to be lubed with out specific development the joint and the appropriate torque value. The standard torques are different for plain, phosphate coated and zinc dichromate, and dortec bolts because of the different frictional properties of the bolts.
-as far as aluminum wheels sticking to steel hubs. This is due to by-metal corrosion. I don't know the exact chemistry of it but I think it is a little different than oxidation.
-IMO one should always uses a torque wrench on wheel lug nuts and not use lube. FWIW.
Junior,
The fact that few people have trouble when they use anti-seize of more a testimony to the design reserve built into the wheel mounting system than their method of lubing the threads.
The fact that few people have trouble when they use anti-seize of more a testimony to the design reserve built into the wheel mounting system than their method of lubing the threads.
"Two guys checking lug's eh? That's a ---- good idea if you ask me. Kinda of surprised that Wal-Mart of all places would do that."
Wal-mart is a multi-billion dollar company, they are basically terrified of being sued, anything they do is under scrutiny. If the anti-seize compound were not safe to use, they would not use it. As for the double-check, that is a policy is place so your wheel or drain plug does not come off while you are driving and turning around and SUING them. Wal-mart is very good at making and saving money, if its going to cost them more in the long run, they don't do it.
Wal-mart is a multi-billion dollar company, they are basically terrified of being sued, anything they do is under scrutiny. If the anti-seize compound were not safe to use, they would not use it. As for the double-check, that is a policy is place so your wheel or drain plug does not come off while you are driving and turning around and SUING them. Wal-mart is very good at making and saving money, if its going to cost them more in the long run, they don't do it.
Let me see if I have this right . . . anti-seize allows you to over-torque the lugnuts, and anti-seize causes the lug nuts to loosen up. I find that contradictory. How can something over-tightened loosen easier? My life experience finds that contradictory. Anti-seize is a wonderful thing and should be used more often. The only thing it does is prevent corrosion and seizing between the nut and stud. A brand new lug nut threads off a new stud easier than the same with an application of anti-seize . . . Kind of like a new wheel bearing spins easy dry, but drags when properly packed with grease.
I put anti-seize between the hub and rotor. Had a heck of a time whacking my old ones off.
I anti-seize my front lugs since the wheel caps were stolen and they get lots of weather on them. They tend to be harder to remove than the wheels with the caps on them.
I anti-seize my front lugs since the wheel caps were stolen and they get lots of weather on them. They tend to be harder to remove than the wheels with the caps on them.
Seems to me that use of anti-seize is going to cost them in the long run in the product and the time to apply it. They have impact wrenches to loosen lug nuts, so why do they care if anti-seize is used? Only some of the cars they do will come back to WalMart for the next set of tires.
Anti Seize also protects the thread. Taking lugs nut off will weaken the thread and torque in the long run.
Internet experts. Sort through the info, some people know and some people think they know.
My mechanical engineering experience doesn't!
Maximum recommended torque values often take a bolt/stud to 80% of yield stress. It's best not to go beyond the yield stress where plastic (permanent) deformation occurs. Fortunately, most common steels allow quite a bit of plastic deformation before failure.
I was using anti seize on wheel lugs but I saw a test where the clamping pressure vs. applied torque was more inconsistent when using it compared to dry or oil lubricated threads. The threads lubricated with oil seemed to do the best so that's what I've been using.
I do use anti seize on the hub centers of alloy wheels. I've had them seize onto hubs and axles without it.
I do use anti seize on the hub centers of alloy wheels. I've had them seize onto hubs and axles without it.
That same lug nut will thread on much smoother with anti-seize on the lug. I've even compared lugs with grease on them to lugs with anti-seize; the lugs with anti-seize make the nut feel smoother threading on than the same nut with grease, but either one is better than nothing at all. On small fasteners I'll use Tri-Flow to lube them up; I don't like to assemble any threaded parts dry.
I should add a little more to what I said in my last post to actually answer the question given. I hope this makes sense:
Below the yield stress of a material is the elastic range, where it will return to its original shape when unloaded. If the stud is tightened above the yield stress - into the plastic range - it remains in that range as you drive away. Any further loads caused by driving result in even more plastic deformation of the stud. So, driving will cause the clamping force of the overtorqued stud to ease off a bit. Except in a collision, these loads will likely be much lower than the preload created by the lugnut torque, so they usually won't cause the bolt to completely loosen off. Also, the steel will become stronger (higher tensile strength) as it is cold worked by the plastic deformation (but it will become more brittle too). The extra tensile strength of the cold worked stud will usually compensate for the overtorquing on successive wheel installations, and the end result is a stud that works fine but is operating with less safety factor.
You may find that with the first application of anti-seize on some wheel studs, you can torque to the recommended value, stop, and then tighten the lugnut even more before the torque wrench clicks again. This shows plastic deformation already occurring during the tightening process.
With new aluminum wheels, there is some initial cold working of the virgin aluminum that can cause the lugnuts to lose a bit of the initial clamping force. So a re-torque is a good idea in that application too.
Below the yield stress of a material is the elastic range, where it will return to its original shape when unloaded. If the stud is tightened above the yield stress - into the plastic range - it remains in that range as you drive away. Any further loads caused by driving result in even more plastic deformation of the stud. So, driving will cause the clamping force of the overtorqued stud to ease off a bit. Except in a collision, these loads will likely be much lower than the preload created by the lugnut torque, so they usually won't cause the bolt to completely loosen off. Also, the steel will become stronger (higher tensile strength) as it is cold worked by the plastic deformation (but it will become more brittle too). The extra tensile strength of the cold worked stud will usually compensate for the overtorquing on successive wheel installations, and the end result is a stud that works fine but is operating with less safety factor.
You may find that with the first application of anti-seize on some wheel studs, you can torque to the recommended value, stop, and then tighten the lugnut even more before the torque wrench clicks again. This shows plastic deformation already occurring during the tightening process.
With new aluminum wheels, there is some initial cold working of the virgin aluminum that can cause the lugnuts to lose a bit of the initial clamping force. So a re-torque is a good idea in that application too.
Is this why you have to return for a retourque after X kilometers?
It's a good idea to retorque after installing new wheels or if the studs were overtorqued to a new high for the first time. In any other situation, it should be unnecessary. I think a lot of shops requesting that you return for a retorque are just covering their asses, but it's also a liability-avoidance necessity for those that use an impact wrench without a torque stick to tighten the lugnuts, especially when you throw some anti-seize into the mix!
Kestas
Staff member
No it will not. This is a common misconception people have with lugs. As long as the applied loads to the lug are less than the clamping force, nothing really happens.
Forces applied to a fastener assembly are not additive. Forces may be applied up to the clamp load force with no worry. The only problem to worry about is when there are loads applied that are higher than the clamp load or loads that cause movement of the clamped lug. This can result in fatigue fracture.
What I was taught...Torque values set for lug nuts are "dry". If you use anti-seize on the threads, you could over torque. Clean the treads and wipe off excess. Anti-seize should be used on the backside of the wheel (contact surface to the drum/rotor) so it doesn't weld itself.
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