Anti-wear additives in SM oils ???

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
I have been using HD lubricants in petrol engines for around 50 years with no adverse results - ever!


I agree. Speaking of ZDDP and HDEOs, Popular Mechanics this month has a little writeup on it because someone asked a question about their old style performance engine failing shortly after rebuild (cam and lifter failure). They indicated that over 1000 ppm of ZDDP was okay, and 1200 ppm would be optimal. They didn't like the notion of an HDEO because of "abrasive" detergents.

If the HDEO meets SM, and your engine needs SM or older and the grade is appropriate, you should be good to go. I haven't heard of anyone ruining a gas engine (or shortening its life, for that matter) by using an appropriately rated HDEO in the appropriate viscosity.

It's a lot easier than poring over a bunch of product data sheets (PM made a mistake and said to check the MSDS, which, to my knowledge, don't say a thing about ZDDP) and then hunting for some obscure oil. It's also a lot cheaper to buy a suitable HDEO (i.e. Rotella or Esso HDEO 10w-30 would work perfectly for most old performance engines) than it is to buy a quality current PCMO and spend a whack of money on nuisance additives.

The old engines are not likely to be subjected to extended OCIs. So, why buy $10 worth of QS SM, for instance, and $10 worth of some ZDDP additive when $10 worth of Rotella or Delvac 1300 would do the trick?

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
I have been using HD lubricants in petrol engines for around 50 years with no adverse results - ever!


I agree. Speaking of ZDDP and HDEOs, Popular Mechanics this month has a little writeup on it because someone asked a question about their old style performance engine failing shortly after rebuild (cam and lifter failure). They indicated that over 1000 ppm of ZDDP was okay, and 1200 ppm would be optimal. They didn't like the notion of an HDEO because of "abrasive" detergents.

If the HDEO meets SM, and your engine needs SM or older and the grade is appropriate, you should be good to go. I haven't heard of anyone ruining a gas engine (or shortening its life, for that matter) by using an appropriately rated HDEO in the appropriate viscosity.

It's a lot easier than poring over a bunch of product data sheets (PM made a mistake and said to check the MSDS, which, to my knowledge, don't say a thing about ZDDP) and then hunting for some obscure oil. It's also a lot cheaper to buy a suitable HDEO (i.e. Rotella or Esso HDEO 10w-30 would work perfectly for most old performance engines) than it is to buy a quality current PCMO and spend a whack of money on nuisance additives.

The old engines are not likely to be subjected to extended OCIs. So, why buy $10 worth of QS SM, for instance, and $10 worth of some ZDDP additive when $10 worth of Rotella or Delvac 1300 would do the trick?


Having brought up a similar thought in another thread, I will give you my answer: my 5L bottle of QS GB cost $10 (thanks to a rollback) . Rotella or another HDEO is not $10, and I have never seen it on sale here or on a rollback. I also don't want to move up to anything thicker than the 30 weight oil I use now. Between lack of availability, selection, and sales, the HDEO oil I buy would be at least double, and possibly triple what the QS GB cost.

It also contains a fair amount of magnesium. Calcium does the same thing, but is not abrasive like magnesium. Given the conditions the HDEO machinery is operating in, the magnesium isn't going to do it any harm. I'd prefer to keep it out of my oil, though, when I can choose an oil with the other detergent that does the same thing and isn't abrasive.

I'm not sure which $10 ZDDP additive you're referring to, as you fail to indicate it, so the number you give is meaningless. But if I want more ZDDP, as my SJ rated engine allows (as compared to the limit imposed by the API SM spec), If it costs anything less than the price difference for Rotella, I'm already ahead. Not only that, but I've upped the level of the additive desired and avoided introducing the additive I don't want.

That makes sense to me.

-Spyder

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Having brought up a similar thought in another thread, I will give you my answer: my 5L bottle of QS GB cost $10 (thanks to a rollback) . Rotella or another HDEO is not $10, and I have never seen it on sale here or on a rollback. I also don't want to move up to anything thicker than the 30 weight oil I use now. Between lack of availability, selection, and sales, the HDEO oil I buy would be at least double, and possibly triple what the QS GB cost.


Getting Rotella at that price is doable - not easy, but doable. I avoid comparing rollbacks at Walmart to regular prices. Comparing the regular price of QS at Walmart to the regular price of Rotella, the Rotella comes out cheaper per litre. If you look at Walmart's house HDEO, its regular price is cheaper than the QS rollback price. I do admit that getting any HDEO in 10w-30 is harder than in 15w-40. However, it can be done. You and I are both in Canada, and there are enough Imperial Oil distributors. I've never had a problem coming across HDEO 10w-30 at a reasonable price. Sure, I may have to buy a 5 gallon pail, but I have no problem with that.

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
I'm not sure which $10 ZDDP additive you're referring to, as you fail to indicate it, so the number you give is meaningless. But if I want more ZDDP, as my SJ rated engine allows (as compared to the limit imposed by the API SM spec), If it costs anything less than the price difference for Rotella, I'm already ahead. Not only that, but I've upped the level of the additive desired and avoided introducing the additive I don't want.


I'm speaking of Comp Cams break in additive. $10 is a lowball price, too. Most would wind up paying $17 for the pint that goes into one oil change. My supplier sells it for $17, but got me some for $10 because I bought a bunch of rebuild parts there. Royal Purple break in oil works out to about the same neighbourhood.

One also doesn't know what other additives are in the break in additive. I opted for the break in additive, contrary to my HDEO advice, simply because my rebuild was done in the winter, and the vehicle was to be driven in the winter. I wasn't going to spend a bunch of money on Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 or Royal Purple oil for a couple short OCIs.

For the average guy in the States that has a performance car that runs only in the summer, an HDEO 10w-30 would be ideal. If one is dead set against using an HDEO, there are enough PCMOs that have sufficient ZDDP, if one wishes to go through the product data sheets.

There are basically three options. HDEO, a current PCMO with enough ZDDP, any oil plus an additive. I find the first option the path of least resistance.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Having brought up a similar thought in another thread, I will give you my answer: my 5L bottle of QS GB cost $10 (thanks to a rollback) . Rotella or another HDEO is not $10, and I have never seen it on sale here or on a rollback. I also don't want to move up to anything thicker than the 30 weight oil I use now. Between lack of availability, selection, and sales, the HDEO oil I buy would be at least double, and possibly triple what the QS GB cost.


Getting Rotella at that price is doable - not easy, but doable. I avoid comparing rollbacks at Walmart to regular prices. Comparing the regular price of QS at Walmart to the regular price of Rotella, the Rotella comes out cheaper per litre. If you look at Walmart's house HDEO, its regular price is cheaper than the QS rollback price. I do admit that getting any HDEO in 10w-30 is harder than in 15w-40. However, it can be done. You and I are both in Canada, and there are enough Imperial Oil distributors. I've never had a problem coming across HDEO 10w-30 at a reasonable price. Sure, I may have to buy a 5 gallon pail, but I have no problem with that.

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
I'm not sure which $10 ZDDP additive you're referring to, as you fail to indicate it, so the number you give is meaningless. But if I want more ZDDP, as my SJ rated engine allows (as compared to the limit imposed by the API SM spec), If it costs anything less than the price difference for Rotella, I'm already ahead. Not only that, but I've upped the level of the additive desired and avoided introducing the additive I don't want.


I'm speaking of Comp Cams break in additive. $10 is a lowball price, too. Most would wind up paying $17 for the pint that goes into one oil change. My supplier sells it for $17, but got me some for $10 because I bought a bunch of rebuild parts there. Royal Purple break in oil works out to about the same neighbourhood.

One also doesn't know what other additives are in the break in additive. I opted for the break in additive, contrary to my HDEO advice, simply because my rebuild was done in the winter, and the vehicle was to be driven in the winter. I wasn't going to spend a bunch of money on Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 or Royal Purple oil for a couple short OCIs.

For the average guy in the States that has a performance car that runs only in the summer, an HDEO 10w-30 would be ideal. If one is dead set against using an HDEO, there are enough PCMOs that have sufficient ZDDP, if one wishes to go through the product data sheets.

There are basically three options. HDEO, a current PCMO with enough ZDDP, any oil plus an additive. I find the first option the path of least resistance.


A ZDDP additive is something I'm looking into now. I'm not sure myself of the price, because I don't even yet have a potential candidate in mind.

There is actually no imperial oil distributor here that sells engine oil at the consumer level. I spent some time pursuing this before when looking for another product, only to wind up at a dead end.

WM prices not only vary between the US and Canada, or even region to region, but (at least here) from store to store. We have "twin cities" here and I live near the boundary between them. There are 2 here, and one in the city next door. The one in the other city is closer, but I mostly go to the one farther away in my own city because the oil prices are better there. Strange, but true. Neither carries much in HDEO oils. CT and Napa are the only real options there, but its expensive compared to what I've gotten PCMOs (dino and synthetic) at the 'good' WM for.

Given these and my other reasons, the ZDDP route is my preferred one. Its not the path of least resistance, and when its all said and done I may up paying the same price. I'm ok with that if it comes to it, as there is some merit for me in being able to use the additive to 'tweak' whichever oil I'm using.

This is inline with the LM mos2 I'm already using to up the moly count in my oil. Although the cost was pretty low for this one, as one bottle treats three OCs for me because of my small sump. The same German engineering outfit puts out another product called 'Motor Oil Saver' that I am also looking at adding at some point.

People will think I'm off my rocker, but if I work it out successfully, I will have an SL level of moly and ZDDP equivalent to your typical HDEO, in my API SM PCMO, plus the burn off resistance and seal conditioning of an HM oil (from LM Motor Oil Saver). Maybe it sounds nuts. Maybe it IS nuts. But I like to think outside the box, research ideas and see where they go. If I'm satisfied that an experiment may be beneficial, and is safe and reasonably cost effective to do, I will do it.

Of course should I manage to grenade the engine in the process, I'll report back on that too.

-Spyder

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
A ZDDP additive is something I'm looking into now. I'm not sure myself of the price, because I don't even yet have a potential candidate in mind.


Well, it certainly depends upon price and quality. I know the Crane Cams stuff is good, but it isn't cheap. Of course, that doesn't mean someone else couldn't get it somewhere else at a much better deal. We all know how these things work in Canada.

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
There is actually no imperial oil distributor here that sells engine oil at the consumer level. I spent some time pursuing this before when looking for another product, only to wind up at a dead end.


Well, that's no fun. That doesn't make things easier. Are there any Shell distributors out east? There aren't any out here anymore. I guess their products have enough availability at the retail level, including Walmart, that they really don't need the bulk oil distributors anymore.

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
WM prices not only vary between the US and Canada, or even region to region, but (at least here) from store to store.


You're not kidding. GC at the north Walmart is two bucks per litre cheaper than the GC at the west Walmart. Why? Good question. The east Walmart had a limit on QS at the rollback. The west one had enough to fill a swimming pool and no purchase limits.

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
This is inline with the LM mos2 I'm already using to up the moly count in my oil. Although the cost was pretty low for this one, as one bottle treats three OCs for me because of my small sump. The same German engineering outfit puts out another product called 'Motor Oil Saver' that I am also looking at adding at some point.


I've seen some reasonable prices on that stuff, too. The fancy imported stuff is cheap, yet the North American ZDDP costs a fortune.

 

[Spyder7]

There's no longer even any Shell gas stations here. They disappeared overnight (like K-mart). I've only seen Shell products at CT, Napa, and Zellers (of all places).

The LM mos2 was actually quite a bit more here than the other guys who posted about it paid for it. As the cost is spread over 3 OCs, and I was surprised to even find it OTC here (bit exotic for this place), I didn't complain.

I'm going to check out the LM product line to see if they make a ZDDP additive, but beyond that your suggestion is as good a place to begin as any. Lots of research to be done before anything is bought or goes into the crankcase. This is one of my more recent ideas and something I admit I'm still chewing over.

Like a sponge, I absorb every bit of info I can find here and elsewhere on an idea once I get it into my head, but then I'm pretty slow to act on it as I weigh all the variables first.

This newest one is still in the 'alpha' phase. More research and thought needed before I commit to doing anything. Once I commit I'm pretty stubborn, and then take the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it approach" (which really means that when I find the rare thing I really like, an oil, an additive, filter, whatever, if I'm satisfied by it then I'm reluctant to dump it for something else).

-Spyder

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
I'm going to check out the LM product line to see if they make a ZDDP additive, but beyond that your suggestion is as good a place to begin as any. Lots of research to be done before anything is bought or goes into the crankcase. This is one of my more recent ideas and something I admit I'm still chewing over.


Royal Purple might have an appropriate additive. I do know they have a break in oil. The only problem would be price. Crane Cams and Comp Cams make an additive. One would suspect their additives would be trustworthy, since they make the cams, after all, and it's in their interest for them not to fail quickly. Lucas makes a zinc additive, too, if I recall correctly. I know they're not too popular on BITOG, but at least it might be available.

Other than that, perhaps a high mileage oil might fit your requirements. They tend to not meet the absolute latest specs, so that might be helpful.

 

[CATERHAM]

The last time I checked PC's Duron 0W-30 contained 1200 ppm of Phos and for Cdn's is readily available.

As far as supplements are concerned, I've used RL's Break-In Additive which is a pretty good deal (I'm fortunate to has a local RL dealer with good prices). For 12 buck you can doctor 4 or 5 SM oil changes plus your getting a dose of polar POE as well.

 

[JLR]

In my research, the least expensive way to bring SM oil up to 1200 ppm of zinc is to use Crane Cams' "Superlube" break in additive. It has 107000 ppm of zinc which means you only have to add 1/10-oz (3-ml) of the additive for each quart of oil in your fill. I found this info on the Corvette Action Center.
The link to the web sight is below.

corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/oil/oil_camwear5.html

Jerry

 

[A_Harman]

I went through a similar situation with my Dodge Ram diesel. Back in 2007, when the CJ4 oils came out with reduced ZDDP, I stocked up on Premium Blue Classic. This was the CI4+ PB with high AW, and got renamed when CJ4 came out. This year, I finally ran out of PB Classic, and was forced to buy a gallon of CJ4 PB that does not have the CI4+ designator in the API donut. To overcome the problem of low ZDDP in my makeup oil, I bought a bottle of ZDDPlus for $12 and mixed it in the PB.

OK, so what do I have? A $12-gallon of dino oil with a $12-bottle of additive. I'm paying syn-oil price, and not getting the cold flow benefit of 5W-40. Next oil change, I'm switching to Mobil 1 TDT. I may end up adding ZDDPlus again, because I think the 1100ppm Zn in TDT is a little weak, but it would not take a bottle per gallon to get the wear protection I crave. More like a bottle per oil change.

 

[AEHaas]

Research has shown that levels over 0.03 have no additional benefit for wear. The only reason to have higher levels is because it is consumed. In race car engines the levels are around 0.12 or more but consumption is high. As long as the level never gets below 0.03 there will be no wear related to low levels.

The only reason that ZDP is so common is because it is inexpensive. Newer and Better additives can be substantially more expensive.

And do not forget that higher levels have side effects as corrosion. You cannot just keep adding Zn into your oil. You will be doing more harm than good.

Also, like all API s-grades before, the new SN is backward compatible. That means the these oils can be used in all known engines where SJ, SH, SL and the others have been used before. And one of the SN features (requirements) is Reduced Wear and increased MPG at the same time.

So the new specification means your engine should wear less than if you used any other previously spec'ed (older) passenger car motor oil.

aehaas

 

[AEHaas]

Let me add that they changed the label from saying that these new oils are "energy conserving" to "resource conserving" to indicate that MPG is not the only concern as many people have (erroneously) thought over the recent decade.

aehaas