I'm kinda new to the BITOG forums. Some contributors have dismissed the people that claim that the reduction of ZDDP is bad for flat tappet engines. Some have said that the new oil has other anti-wear additives that make them better than the old oils. They seem to follow the oil companies like they can do no wrong. It seems to me that the reason the ZDDP was reduced, in the SM oils, is so the catalytic converters, in the new cars, would last as long as the 100,000 mile warranty. When I look at the VOA's for oils I see a lot of calcium, which I think is part of the detergent. A lot of zinc and phosphorus that I think are in the anti-wear additive ZDDP. A little molybdenum and a little boron. It seems to me that the only thing that has changed very much is the reduction of zinc and phosphorus. What is the substance that has been added to make up for the reduction of ZDDP. What ever it is should show up in the oil analysis. I guess the SM oil is good enough for the new cars but I don't think they are necessarily good for old cars. My two modern cars will get SM Mobil 1 because think it is best for them. My two old cars are going to get something with more zinc and phosphorus. For those of you with old cars, Texas Refining Corp. has a diesel engine oil called Pro Spec III in 15w40. It is a CI-4, SL oil with 1400 ppm zinc, 1200 ppm phosphorus, and 4400 ppm calcium. It has a 15 plus TBN. This stuff would be poison for the catalytic converter in your modern car but your 50's and 60's cars will love it. I don't work for these guys; I get my TRC oil at the local CO-OP farm supply store for $3.50 a quart.
Anti-wear additives in SM oils ???
- Thread starter JLR
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Quote:
This stuff would be poison for the catalytic converter in your modern car
how did modern cars (when they were modern cars) survive on the same 1200ppm of phos for all of those years under SL?
This stuff would be poison for the catalytic converter in your modern car
how did modern cars (when they were modern cars) survive on the same 1200ppm of phos for all of those years under SL?
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
This stuff would be poison for the catalytic converter in your modern car
how did modern cars (when they were modern cars) survive on the same 1200ppm of phos for all of those years under SL?
I don't know. Was that before the 100K warranty?
Quote:
This stuff would be poison for the catalytic converter in your modern car
how did modern cars (when they were modern cars) survive on the same 1200ppm of phos for all of those years under SL?
I don't know. Was that before the 100K warranty?
Originally Posted By: JLR
What is the substance that has been added to make up for the reduction of ZDDP. What ever it is should show up in the oil analysis. I guess the SM oil is good enough for the new cars but I don't think they are necessarily good for old cars.
It will show up in oil analysis, but not the type of analysis that is affordable to most consumers.
Other additives will slowly replace ZDDP. Less ZDDP is not always bad, either, as technologies such as Lubrizol's HyperZDP has allowed better retention during the length of the oil drain. But yes, additives such as Boron and Sodium, as well as other additives have begun to replace ZDDP.
What is the substance that has been added to make up for the reduction of ZDDP. What ever it is should show up in the oil analysis. I guess the SM oil is good enough for the new cars but I don't think they are necessarily good for old cars.
It will show up in oil analysis, but not the type of analysis that is affordable to most consumers.
Other additives will slowly replace ZDDP. Less ZDDP is not always bad, either, as technologies such as Lubrizol's HyperZDP has allowed better retention during the length of the oil drain. But yes, additives such as Boron and Sodium, as well as other additives have begun to replace ZDDP.
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Originally Posted By: JLR
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
This stuff would be poison for the catalytic converter in your modern car
how did modern cars (when they were modern cars) survive on the same 1200ppm of phos for all of those years under SL?
I don't know. Was that before the 100K warranty?
I don't know, have you heard of too may cats going bad (outside of niche design/manufacturing defects) in 200k/15years+ of use under SL?
(visions of Bladerunner where I'm Holden and I'm supposed to now say "They're just questions, Leon ..and in answer to your query, they're written down for me. Shall we continue?")
The only point I'm trying to get you to consider is that if any poisoning can happen now, it was happening PallMall earlier and no one seemed to fret too much over it on the end user level. Now since SM came out to protect cats, everyone immediately adopted "dual paranoia". They're 'fraidy cats about "cat poisoning" that they were 100% bumpkin ignorant about bathing in the stuff, and worried about flat tappet cam wear for lack of it.
This isn't even an approach avoidance syndrome situation ..this could be a "learned helplessness" condition. No matter what you do, you get the shock.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
This stuff would be poison for the catalytic converter in your modern car
how did modern cars (when they were modern cars) survive on the same 1200ppm of phos for all of those years under SL?
I don't know. Was that before the 100K warranty?
(visions of Bladerunner where I'm Holden and I'm supposed to now say "They're just questions, Leon ..and in answer to your query, they're written down for me. Shall we continue?")
The only point I'm trying to get you to consider is that if any poisoning can happen now, it was happening PallMall earlier and no one seemed to fret too much over it on the end user level. Now since SM came out to protect cats, everyone immediately adopted "dual paranoia". They're 'fraidy cats about "cat poisoning" that they were 100% bumpkin ignorant about bathing in the stuff, and worried about flat tappet cam wear for lack of it.
This isn't even an approach avoidance syndrome situation ..this could be a "learned helplessness" condition. No matter what you do, you get the shock.
I think the ZDDP harming cat. cons. is nothing more that making money.As Gary was saying,how many have failed ovet the years in cars with 100K+ miles? I have a car that is a 93 model with 200K+ miles and as far as I know,the cat. con. is original.
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
I think the ZDDP harming cat. cons. is nothing more that making money.As Gary was saying,how many have failed ovet the years in cars with 100K+ miles? I have a car that is a 93 model with 200K+ miles and as far as I know,the cat. con. is original.
It seems to be happening more frequently on the newer Japanese cars, I've found. I still have the original cat on the Saturn, but my friend's father's 2003 Camry with 130k is already throwing the infamous cat codes.
I think the ZDDP harming cat. cons. is nothing more that making money.As Gary was saying,how many have failed ovet the years in cars with 100K+ miles? I have a car that is a 93 model with 200K+ miles and as far as I know,the cat. con. is original.
It seems to be happening more frequently on the newer Japanese cars, I've found. I still have the original cat on the Saturn, but my friend's father's 2003 Camry with 130k is already throwing the infamous cat codes.
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Yeah, but those newer Japanese cars also have ...hmmm..or rather tend to have "custom chassis" cats, if my aftermarket price check is any indicator. Those are design weaknesses. If they were making 2 or 3 cats for the whole line up, that would not be the case.
..and are you saying that they're failing due to phos poisoning ..or just failing? That is, are the owners using (where are they finding it) SL oil ..are these cars from SL era?
Keep in mind that some of all Zddp volatilizes (unless they're using the Lubrizol $$$ stuff) ..so the 3k/3m prisoner is probably processing more phos through his cat than some OEM drain interval type.
..and are you saying that they're failing due to phos poisoning ..or just failing? That is, are the owners using (where are they finding it) SL oil ..are these cars from SL era?
Keep in mind that some of all Zddp volatilizes (unless they're using the Lubrizol $$$ stuff) ..so the 3k/3m prisoner is probably processing more phos through his cat than some OEM drain interval type.
Some of us Canadian members are going to try Fuchs Titan GT-1 0W-20, ZDDP Zinc free oil. Member 21Rouge managed to talk the Canadian Fuchs importer to bring in the grade. We expect it to arrive in November.
http://www.millionauto.com/download/TITAN GT1 0W20.pdf
This zinc from oil was used in the 997 GT-3 Porsche Cup racing series of a few years ago.
Point being there is indeed more than one way to "skin a cat".
http://www.millionauto.com/download/TITAN GT1 0W20.pdf
This zinc from oil was used in the 997 GT-3 Porsche Cup racing series of a few years ago.
Point being there is indeed more than one way to "skin a cat".
Hi,
CATERHAM - GT1 0W-20 has been available here for almost a decade. I don't think it's a great seller in Germany. Other FUCHS products are and widely advertised throughout - some on a gigantic billboard near in Berln near Checkpoint Charlie of old - of course some are FF at MB Unterturkheim and with other German engine makers too
They make great Industrial lubricants as well
CATERHAM - GT1 0W-20 has been available here for almost a decade. I don't think it's a great seller in Germany. Other FUCHS products are and widely advertised throughout - some on a gigantic billboard near in Berln near Checkpoint Charlie of old - of course some are FF at MB Unterturkheim and with other German engine makers too
They make great Industrial lubricants as well
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
I think the ZDDP harming cat. cons. is nothing more that making money.As Gary was saying,how many have failed ovet the years in cars with 100K+ miles? I have a car that is a 93 model with 200K+ miles and as far as I know,the cat. con. is original.
It seems to be happening more frequently on the newer Japanese cars, I've found. I still have the original cat on the Saturn, but my friend's father's 2003 Camry with 130k is already throwing the infamous cat codes.
It may not be the cat, but the sensor near the cat(downstream). The reduced Zinc in oils since thay have changed to SM/GF-4 isn't for our benefit, it's for the benefit of the auto manufactures as to reduce the amount of cat failures under warranty(8/80k)
Another difference in the oils today as compared to SL/GF-3 is the reduction/elimination of GroupI oil. It seems to me that all of SM/GF-4 is at least GroupII while in the SL/GF-3 oils there were oil companies still using GroupI. No more GroupI today in the SM/GF-4. There may be other adds in the oil also but, IDK what they are. It's a secret!
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
I think the ZDDP harming cat. cons. is nothing more that making money.As Gary was saying,how many have failed ovet the years in cars with 100K+ miles? I have a car that is a 93 model with 200K+ miles and as far as I know,the cat. con. is original.
It seems to be happening more frequently on the newer Japanese cars, I've found. I still have the original cat on the Saturn, but my friend's father's 2003 Camry with 130k is already throwing the infamous cat codes.
It may not be the cat, but the sensor near the cat(downstream). The reduced Zinc in oils since thay have changed to SM/GF-4 isn't for our benefit, it's for the benefit of the auto manufactures as to reduce the amount of cat failures under warranty(8/80k)
Another difference in the oils today as compared to SL/GF-3 is the reduction/elimination of GroupI oil. It seems to me that all of SM/GF-4 is at least GroupII while in the SL/GF-3 oils there were oil companies still using GroupI. No more GroupI today in the SM/GF-4. There may be other adds in the oil also but, IDK what they are. It's a secret!
My experience with catalytic converters has been limited to Corvettes over the years. Aside from the really horrible GM pellet converters that came on the 74-82 Vettes, I've seen few converters fail just because of zinc "poisoning".
Most failures were due to excess fuel (larger injectors) burning inside the converter itself and melting the substrate. I've seen a few high mileage (100k-200K) 84-96 converters shut down after excessive deposits for blow-by oil, fuel additives, oil additives, etc. just loaded up the converter to the point it couldn't burn the gunk off during the normal operation.
The post 96 models seem to be very efficient at self-cleaning as I've only seen one converter melt down due to excessive fuel.
I agree that the car manufactures wanted to lower ZDDP in their recommended oil as they now have to warranty the emission system for 100K (as opposed to the earlier 50K warranty that was imposed by the government). (As an aside, you wouldn't believe the paperwork a shop had to fill out to replace a converter back in the 90's. Plus we had to keep the old converter for a year just in case the government decided to test it!)
While reduced ZDDP might be okay for modern engines with roller tappets, the existing flat tappet engines of the past probably need higher levels to keep on going. However, for most earlier Corvettes I've seen, failure was usually related to oil starvation on the #1 and #2 cylinder cam lobes due to lack of oil at high RPM or sludge from infrequent oil changes for the use that the Vette was seeing.
Just my thoughts. YMMV.
Most failures were due to excess fuel (larger injectors) burning inside the converter itself and melting the substrate. I've seen a few high mileage (100k-200K) 84-96 converters shut down after excessive deposits for blow-by oil, fuel additives, oil additives, etc. just loaded up the converter to the point it couldn't burn the gunk off during the normal operation.
The post 96 models seem to be very efficient at self-cleaning as I've only seen one converter melt down due to excessive fuel.
I agree that the car manufactures wanted to lower ZDDP in their recommended oil as they now have to warranty the emission system for 100K (as opposed to the earlier 50K warranty that was imposed by the government). (As an aside, you wouldn't believe the paperwork a shop had to fill out to replace a converter back in the 90's. Plus we had to keep the old converter for a year just in case the government decided to test it!)
While reduced ZDDP might be okay for modern engines with roller tappets, the existing flat tappet engines of the past probably need higher levels to keep on going. However, for most earlier Corvettes I've seen, failure was usually related to oil starvation on the #1 and #2 cylinder cam lobes due to lack of oil at high RPM or sludge from infrequent oil changes for the use that the Vette was seeing.
Just my thoughts. YMMV.
And don't forget, its not "SM" per se that requires lower ZDDP. There are plenty of SM oils out there that still have >1000 PPM of ZDDP, for example HDEOs like M1 TDT, Rotella, and Delo plus more performance-oriented oils like M1 0w40 and M1 15w50. Its the ILSAC ratings that are more concerned with emissions and put tighter reins on ZDDP than the API SM rating does.
Originally Posted By: JLR
... My two modern cars will get SM Mobil 1 because think it is best for them. My two old cars are going to get something with more zinc and phosphorus. For those of you with old cars, Texas Refining Corp. has a diesel engine oil called Pro Spec III in 15w40. It is a CI-4, SL oil with 1400 ppm zinc, 1200 ppm phosphorus, and 4400 ppm calcium. It has a 15 plus TBN. ..
It's not SM severly limiting the phos in spark ignition lubricants, it's ILSAC-GF4/5. No mystery you can buy diesel oil for you old car, but the high level of CA/MG metals base detergency is NOT GOOD for reducing wear as the detergent compete for surface with the ZDDP. The trick is getting a light 10w-40 or solid 10w-30 with the good ol' dose of ZDDP. That 40 diesel oil will just sap power from your engine, its WAY too thick for most applications. An Alternative is SJ rated 10w-30 John Deere lawn tractor oil. People afraid of this oil, because it says "yard equipment" on it, just dont understand the basics of engine lubricants. Another good alternative would be 4T motorcycle oil, most of which is API-SJ and some newer formualtion are API SM. Again, those afraid of using this oil are just ignorant of oil formualtion. Overly cautious or skeptical? Read the data sheet, have a VOA check performed. It's the Idiocracy of the label that predominates, "Oh, it says motorcycle on duh bottle, I cant put dat in my car ....! Come on guys, this is BITOG not MindlessLemmingsDUH!
... My two modern cars will get SM Mobil 1 because think it is best for them. My two old cars are going to get something with more zinc and phosphorus. For those of you with old cars, Texas Refining Corp. has a diesel engine oil called Pro Spec III in 15w40. It is a CI-4, SL oil with 1400 ppm zinc, 1200 ppm phosphorus, and 4400 ppm calcium. It has a 15 plus TBN. ..
It's not SM severly limiting the phos in spark ignition lubricants, it's ILSAC-GF4/5. No mystery you can buy diesel oil for you old car, but the high level of CA/MG metals base detergency is NOT GOOD for reducing wear as the detergent compete for surface with the ZDDP. The trick is getting a light 10w-40 or solid 10w-30 with the good ol' dose of ZDDP. That 40 diesel oil will just sap power from your engine, its WAY too thick for most applications. An Alternative is SJ rated 10w-30 John Deere lawn tractor oil. People afraid of this oil, because it says "yard equipment" on it, just dont understand the basics of engine lubricants. Another good alternative would be 4T motorcycle oil, most of which is API-SJ and some newer formualtion are API SM. Again, those afraid of using this oil are just ignorant of oil formualtion. Overly cautious or skeptical? Read the data sheet, have a VOA check performed. It's the Idiocracy of the label that predominates, "Oh, it says motorcycle on duh bottle, I cant put dat in my car ....! Come on guys, this is BITOG not MindlessLemmingsDUH!
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Hi Doug,
The interest in this oil stemmed from the following UOA on a Honda in OZ:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1981345/
Like yourself I take UOA wear numbers with a grain of salt but I have to admit it's a good report.
A couple of Cdn members were so blown away by the low wear numbers and secondarily the lack of shear they just had to try it.
So a bulk order has been arranged with the Fuchs importer here.
I was asked to chip in and agreed.
We're getting it for the same price you pay for it, but at $20/L it's too dear for regular use unless it does prove to be something special. Other domestic ester based oils like RL and RLI are half the price (in NA) so it better be good.
The interest in this oil stemmed from the following UOA on a Honda in OZ:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1981345/
Like yourself I take UOA wear numbers with a grain of salt but I have to admit it's a good report.
A couple of Cdn members were so blown away by the low wear numbers and secondarily the lack of shear they just had to try it.
So a bulk order has been arranged with the Fuchs importer here.
I was asked to chip in and agreed.
We're getting it for the same price you pay for it, but at $20/L it's too dear for regular use unless it does prove to be something special. Other domestic ester based oils like RL and RLI are half the price (in NA) so it better be good.
JLR
While a 15W-40 oil is probably OK in Texas for your older engines, I'd choose a 10W-30 dual-rated diesel & gasoline engine oil in cooler climates. I'd also pick a CJ-4/SM oil. If it is good enough for Cat/Cummins/Mack/DetroitDiesel, it's good enough for my Chev or Ford or Dodge. As well said above, it isn't SM that is your culprit, it is ILSAC GF-4.
While a 15W-40 oil is probably OK in Texas for your older engines, I'd choose a 10W-30 dual-rated diesel & gasoline engine oil in cooler climates. I'd also pick a CJ-4/SM oil. If it is good enough for Cat/Cummins/Mack/DetroitDiesel, it's good enough for my Chev or Ford or Dodge. As well said above, it isn't SM that is your culprit, it is ILSAC GF-4.
It's because engines have changed.
Lighter valvetrains and often integrated roller assemblies have changed the oil requirements game.
Break in is still crucial, but after that, modern engines and oils are rarely problematic.
Old style high performance vavletrains still need more than modern 'energy conserving' oils offer.
Lighter valvetrains and often integrated roller assemblies have changed the oil requirements game.
Break in is still crucial, but after that, modern engines and oils are rarely problematic.
Old style high performance vavletrains still need more than modern 'energy conserving' oils offer.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Another good alternative would be 4T motorcycle oil, most of which is API-SJ and some newer formualtion are API SM. Again, those afraid of using this oil are just ignorant of oil formualtion. Overly cautious or skeptical? Read the data sheet, have a VOA check performed. It's the Idiocracy of the label that predominates, "Oh, it says motorcycle on duh bottle, I cant put dat in my car ....! Come on guys, this is BITOG not MindlessLemmingsDUH!
I'm NOT afraid of using (or recommending) 4T oils because it says "for motorcycle use" on the bottles, I will not use (or recommend) it because of the potentially beneficial additives that are left out of it for the sake of wet clutch capability/function.
Since you seem to know about these oils, maybe you can tell us what precisely/exactly is left out of them for bike wet clutch use.
I have NEVER heard exactly which additives/add packs are deleted in these oils.
Another good alternative would be 4T motorcycle oil, most of which is API-SJ and some newer formualtion are API SM. Again, those afraid of using this oil are just ignorant of oil formualtion. Overly cautious or skeptical? Read the data sheet, have a VOA check performed. It's the Idiocracy of the label that predominates, "Oh, it says motorcycle on duh bottle, I cant put dat in my car ....! Come on guys, this is BITOG not MindlessLemmingsDUH!
I'm NOT afraid of using (or recommending) 4T oils because it says "for motorcycle use" on the bottles, I will not use (or recommend) it because of the potentially beneficial additives that are left out of it for the sake of wet clutch capability/function.
Since you seem to know about these oils, maybe you can tell us what precisely/exactly is left out of them for bike wet clutch use.
I have NEVER heard exactly which additives/add packs are deleted in these oils.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
No mystery you can buy diesel oil for you old car, but the high level of CA/MG metals base detergency is NOT GOOD for reducing wear as the detergent compete for surface with the ZDDP. ...
But ARCO, don't diesel engine designers want anti-wear additives for their engines? Presumably their owners want lots of time and miles on those engines.
Mobil 1 10W30 HM (CA - 3003), Mobil 1 0W40 (CA - 3091), Rotella T6 5W40 (CA - 751, MG - 1197), Royal Purple 5W30 (CA - 1922, MG - 1047), Mobil 1 TDT 5W40 (CA - 1015, MG - 736), Mobil 1 10W40 HM (CA - 3074) ... A mix of SL, SM, and CJ-4/SM dual-rated, they all seem to pack hefty doses of CA, MG or both. Are they all bad at reducing wear?
Isn't (one of) the formulator's tasks to balance the ZDDP (and moly and whatever else) to achieve EP/AW goals even with whatever amount of detergency they blend in?
No mystery you can buy diesel oil for you old car, but the high level of CA/MG metals base detergency is NOT GOOD for reducing wear as the detergent compete for surface with the ZDDP. ...
But ARCO, don't diesel engine designers want anti-wear additives for their engines? Presumably their owners want lots of time and miles on those engines.
Mobil 1 10W30 HM (CA - 3003), Mobil 1 0W40 (CA - 3091), Rotella T6 5W40 (CA - 751, MG - 1197), Royal Purple 5W30 (CA - 1922, MG - 1047), Mobil 1 TDT 5W40 (CA - 1015, MG - 736), Mobil 1 10W40 HM (CA - 3074) ... A mix of SL, SM, and CJ-4/SM dual-rated, they all seem to pack hefty doses of CA, MG or both. Are they all bad at reducing wear?
Isn't (one of) the formulator's tasks to balance the ZDDP (and moly and whatever else) to achieve EP/AW goals even with whatever amount of detergency they blend in?
Hi,
The only thing to remember when using HDEOs in petrol engines is that they are dual "C" and "S" API rated - "mixed fleet"!
You are advised never use a diesel only rated lubricant in a petrol engine!
I have been using HD lubricants in petrol engines for around 50 years with no adverse results - ever!
The only thing to remember when using HDEOs in petrol engines is that they are dual "C" and "S" API rated - "mixed fleet"!
You are advised never use a diesel only rated lubricant in a petrol engine!
I have been using HD lubricants in petrol engines for around 50 years with no adverse results - ever!
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