Another wheel hub assembly brand.

When you can find them, Koyo is great in my experience. I managed to find them for my Ford trucks via NAPA's Altrom line, but Altrom is a mixed bag. Beware of counterfeit Koyos online.

I've never had a problem with SKF so far, but apparently like Timken quality varies by application.
 
Originally Posted by Delta
I'll also chime in it's odd the Timken failed real quick. The Timken rear wheel bearing assembly that I bought for my Tacoma even has the OEM Koyo bearing in it. The rest of the assembly is supposedly USA made. Where did you get your bearing? Possibly a China knock-off? That said, you might have to go with SKF's or possibly even a Mopar unit.


Just to clarify a point I noticed in several posts so to avoid confusion.

Timken ( the company) is a world class bearing manufacturer known for pioneering the "tapered roller bearing" ( often referred to as a "Timken bearing") but makes a full line of bearings.

Other manufacturers make tapered roller bearings also (Koyo, NSK and many others) ( many are Asian because they make these primarily for the automotive industry worldwide)

There is no such thing as a "Timken" manufactured bearing with Koyo ( or any other name) on it.

So are we talking "Timken" bearings by manufacturer or simply tapered roller bearings by type? (various manufacturers)

Just curious
 
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by Delta
I'll also chime in it's odd the Timken failed real quick. The Timken rear wheel bearing assembly that I bought for my Tacoma even has the OEM Koyo bearing in it. The rest of the assembly is supposedly USA made. Where did you get your bearing? Possibly a China knock-off? That said, you might have to go with SKF's or possibly even a Mopar unit.


Just to clarify a point I noticed in several posts so to avoid confusion.

Timken ( the company) is a world class bearing manufacturer known for pioneering the "tapered roller bearing" ( often referred to as a "Timken bearing") but makes a full line of bearings.

Other manufacturers make tapered roller bearings also (Koyo, NSK and many others) ( many are Asian because they make these primarily for the automotive industry worldwide)

There is no such thing as a "Timken" manufactured bearing with Koyo ( or any other name) on it.

So are we talking "Timken" bearings by manufacturer or simply tapered roller bearings by type? (various manufacturers)

Just curious






Mine was a timken wheel hub assembly.
 
Originally Posted by Micahmcmeen


Mine was a timken wheel hub assembly.


So you got a hub with 2 Timken cups and 2 cones. ( and all the other stuff comprising the assembly)

Were they the same size?

Did the cups and cones come together or in different boxes?

What exactly failed?

I ask because I do failure analysis for them in warranty situations so have access to various information not readily available at work.

It is highly unlikely a new bearing failed rapidly as described ( but not impossible)
 
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by Micahmcmeen


Mine was a timken wheel hub assembly.


So you got a hub with 2 Timken cups and 2 cones. ( and all the other stuff comprising the assembly)

Were they the same size?

Did the cups and cones come together or in different boxes?

What exactly failed?

I ask because I do failure analysis for them in warranty situations so have access to various information not readily available at work.

It is highly unlikely a new bearing failed rapidly as described ( but not impossible)






I ordered 2 separate wheel hub assemblies. Yes they were the same size. In my personal opinion it sounded as if the bearing in the hub assembly was not pre-greased sufficiently. This is the exact product I purchased.

Screenshot_20200516-202055_Amazon Shopping.jpg
 
Interesting

don't suppose you have either still or pictures of the failure?

both units failed on the same axle?

Did both roar?

Any smell or heat discoloration?

Odd indeed
 
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Interesting

don't suppose you have either still or pictures of the failure?

both units failed on the same axle?

Did both roar?

Any smell or heat discoloration?

Odd indeed










I do. One of them is still on the vehicle while the other one gets mailed in. They both failed on the same axle yes. They both did roar. I can take pictures of the bad one. Though if I may ask, how will that show how the bearing inside failed? Also what part of the assembly exactly would you want to see?
 
Originally Posted by Micahmcmeen
ABN_CBT_ENGR said:
Interesting

don't suppose you have either still or pictures of the failure?

both units failed on the same axle?

Did both roar?

Any smell or heat discoloration?

Odd indeed










I do. One of them is still on the vehicle while the other one gets mailed in. They both failed on the same axle yes. They both did roar. I can take pictures of the bad one. Though if I may ask, how will that show how the bearing inside failed? Also what part of the assembly exactly would you want to see? I have not checked for heat except when I originally replaced it to see which bearing needed replaced. Which I found out later both did. I haven't noticed smells but haven't tried to either.
 
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by Delta
I'll also chime in it's odd the Timken failed real quick. The Timken rear wheel bearing assembly that I bought for my Tacoma even has the OEM Koyo bearing in it. The rest of the assembly is supposedly USA made. Where did you get your bearing? Possibly a China knock-off? That said, you might have to go with SKF's or possibly even a Mopar unit.


Just to clarify a point I noticed in several posts so to avoid confusion.

Timken ( the company) is a world class bearing manufacturer known for pioneering the "tapered roller bearing" ( often referred to as a "Timken bearing") but makes a full line of bearings.

Other manufacturers make tapered roller bearings also (Koyo, NSK and many others) ( many are Asian because they make these primarily for the automotive industry worldwide)

There is no such thing as a "Timken" manufactured bearing with Koyo ( or any other name) on it.

So are we talking "Timken" bearings by manufacturer or simply tapered roller bearings by type? (various manufacturers)

Just curious



Sealed wheel bearing assemblies are not Tapered Roller, They are double row Ball Bearing. And, Yes...Timken does rebox offshore junk sealed wheel bearing assemblies!
 
I would bet 2wd & 4wd Commander's use the same wheel bearing assemblies so i don't see low axle nut torque causing such early failure of the bearing.
 
Originally Posted by clinebarger



Sealed wheel bearing assemblies are not Tapered Roller, They are double row Ball Bearing. And, Yes...Timken does rebox offshore junk sealed wheel bearing assemblies!


You need to learn what you are talking about before challenging one who does.

They come in both configurations depending on application and they are not "double row" ( that's a different type of bearing)- technically they are Conrad with one on either side ( as most automotive and shaft configurations are)

Where exactly is this "junk facility" located at and who do they rebox from? (Just curious)
 
Originally Posted by Micahmcmeen


I do. One of them is still on the vehicle while the other one gets mailed in. They both failed on the same axle yes. They both did roar. I can take pictures of the bad one. Though if I may ask, how will that show how the bearing inside failed? Also what part of the assembly exactly would you want to see? I have not checked for heat except when I originally replaced it to see which bearing needed replaced. Which I found out later both did. I haven't noticed smells but haven't tried to either.


If possible a front and back shot as if looking into the spline bore and maybe a spin with you have to see if you feel a bind or bite. Telltale signs of oil separating from grease saturating a seal if present. If nothing is there then little would be gained.

I don't know the automotive supply chain side and how many hands it hits before ( and if) if gets back for analysis but if and when it does and its still assembled they are first going to visually look it over for what I just described.

Then they have a lathe attachment ( a spinner) they chuck it on to and support it. Then they will mic all run outs- spin it at several RPMs and do a spin test to take vibration, UT and thermal imaging ( assuming its not an obvious basket case)

That will tell real quick if there is a specific ball pass frequency or race defect ( and isolate where its at), mechanical looseness or lack of lubrication situation present.

Then press apart and check bearing ball and surface finishes, media path and geometry of races and contact paths ( that will usually reveal loading configuration and reveal any misalignment or excessive tension on the media.

Comparing all that to design criteria will reveal the failure modes and mechanisms with an above 95% accuracy in the real world. (or 99.9997 as the 6 sigma goes)

From what you describe it sounds like excessive axial loading-cause undetermined ( as of yet) but there are a few things that need to be checked and confirmed/eliminated before we go down that path looking for the failure mechanism.
 
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by Delta
I'll also chime in it's odd the Timken failed real quick. The Timken rear wheel bearing assembly that I bought for my Tacoma even has the OEM Koyo bearing in it. The rest of the assembly is supposedly USA made. Where did you get your bearing? Possibly a China knock-off? That said, you might have to go with SKF's or possibly even a Mopar unit.


Just to clarify a point I noticed in several posts so to avoid confusion.

Timken ( the company) is a world class bearing manufacturer known for pioneering the "tapered roller bearing" ( often referred to as a "Timken bearing") but makes a full line of bearings.

Other manufacturers make tapered roller bearings also (Koyo, NSK and many others) ( many are Asian because they make these primarily for the automotive industry worldwide)

There is no such thing as a "Timken" manufactured bearing with Koyo ( or any other name) on it.

So are we talking "Timken" bearings by manufacturer or simply tapered roller bearings by type? (various manufacturers)

Just curious


I do not know how to fully answer your question other than it was an assembly with a Koyo bearing in a Timken box. Koyo bearings are OEM for most Toyota's (atleast of that generation). More than likely manufactured by someone else and thrown in a Timken box. The OEM assembly with a Koyo bearing at the dealer is $495. The whole repair parts and labor was $300 so if it goes, it goes sooo...
 
Originally Posted by Delta


I do not know how to fully answer your question other than it was an assembly with a Koyo bearing in a Timken box. Koyo bearings are OEM for most Toyota's (atleast of that generation). More than likely manufactured by someone else and thrown in a Timken box. The OEM assembly with a Koyo bearing at the dealer is $495. The whole repair parts and labor was $300 so if it goes, it goes sooo...


That's OK, I can pretty much tell you how it most likely happened ( seen it before and it appears to be chronic in the automotive industry more so than others)

In the DFSS and APQP quest for "on time everything with zero defects) they tend to have a tier 1-2 3 supplier for everything ( like these components and assemblies)- so its the "OEM" part but made to a standard design across the source vendors. Each one gets a percentage so they keep making them should one supplier have a problem it doesn't bottleneck the process and can ramp up when needed.

They order both assemblies and parts and its not uncommon for the OEM create "Frankenstein" assemblies for any number of reasons.( or to re box because at their level they are the OEM so whatever they put together with authorized parts is legit). Happens all the time.

And of course others clone these and assemble them on their own too and pass them off as branded (frequent over there to the point of having to 100% inspect at times). That's another layer of counterfeit.

You can even have the manufacturer (say Timken hub division) assemble with OEM supplied parts for a OEM product. That's also frequent.

Then you have the proprietary assembly that fits the "vehicle" but the parts wouldn't interchange with the same assembly made by a different manufacturer.

I'm sure theres more but I have seen all of those above and that's pretty much normal.

My point was that "Timken" doesn't make a bearing and stamp Koyo (or anyone else) on it.
 
Originally Posted by Micahmcmeen
Originally Posted by Lubener
Originally Posted by Dave9
What vehicle? 100 ft-lbs seems a bit lower than ?? the average vehicle, and a lot lower than some. I mean for the axle nut.

I've had acceptable life from some Chinese parts, but don't want Chinese bearings. Throw a good bearing in a Chinese hub and maybe it'll be okay.

Torque does seem very low. I have had 180 ft lbs on a Chrysler to 250 ft lbs on a Mercury.







You're more than welcome to look it up. Vehicle is stated above.

Just an observation. Got bigger fish to fry.
 
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by Micahmcmeen


I do. One of them is still on the vehicle while the other one gets mailed in. They both failed on the same axle yes. They both did roar. I can take pictures of the bad one. Though if I may ask, how will that show how the bearing inside failed? Also what part of the assembly exactly would you want to see? I have not checked for heat except when I originally replaced it to see which bearing needed replaced. Which I found out later both did. I haven't noticed smells but haven't tried to either.


If possible a front and back shot as if looking into the spline bore and maybe a spin with you have to see if you feel a bind or bite. Telltale signs of oil separating from grease saturating a seal if present. If nothing is there then little would be gained.

I don't know the automotive supply chain side and how many hands it hits before ( and if) if gets back for analysis but if and when it does and its still assembled they are first going to visually look it over for what I just described.

Then they have a lathe attachment ( a spinner) they chuck it on to and support it. Then they will mic all run outs- spin it at several RPMs and do a spin test to take vibration, UT and thermal imaging ( assuming its not an obvious basket case)

That will tell real quick if there is a specific ball pass frequency or race defect ( and isolate where its at), mechanical looseness or lack of lubrication situation present.

Then press apart and check bearing ball and surface finishes, media path and geometry of races and contact paths ( that will usually reveal loading configuration and reveal any misalignment or excessive tension on the media.

Comparing all that to design criteria will reveal the failure modes and mechanisms with an above 95% accuracy in the real world. (or 99.9997 as the 6 sigma goes)

From what you describe it sounds like excessive axial loading-cause undetermined ( as of yet) but there are a few things that need to be checked and confirmed/eliminated before we go down that path looking for the failure mechanism.


20200517_195850.jpg


20200517_195853.jpg


20200517_195858.jpg


20200517_195910.jpg


20200517_195905.jpg
 
Thank you, I will work with them.

Was that surface rust present when you got them?

Did they require any impact (or other persuasion) going over the splines?

Did you measure the axle float? ( or check for any deflection/out-of-round?

Is it possible the axle nut was either over tightened or tightened too far? ( or too loose?)

Can you see grease ( or get a sample with a grease thief or straw) in the sensor hole? ( couldn't see from that one picture)

When you roll it under no load now- does it grind? have a tight spot? Have more axial float than it did new?

Thanks
 
Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Thank you, I will work with them.

Was that surface rust present when you got them?

Did they require any impact (or other persuasion) going over the splines?

Did you measure the axle float? ( or check for any deflection/out-of-round?

Is it possible the axle nut was either over tightened or tightened too far? ( or too loose?)

Can you see grease ( or get a sample with a grease thief or straw) in the sensor hole? ( couldn't see from that one picture)

When you roll it under no load now- does it grind? have a tight spot? Have more axial float than it did new?

Thanks







No, I used to live in upstate N.Y. they spray a chemical on the road which is horrible on vehicles. The bearing slid right on. Only some tapping with a rubber mallet to get it seated. I used a torque wrench which is less than a year old so I doubt it is defective. I did spot some gray colored grease. When I spun it by hand it did make some noise that I would say was in excess. It also did seem to have a tight spot when I first spun it.
 
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