An illustration of just how bad the TL pings...

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Have you considered trading it in for another car ?


Have you considered stuffing a nice Buick turbo in it?

Two of my evil fantasies, just to twist people's noses the wrong way:

1) stuff a turbocharged slant-six into a '63 split-window Corvette to get back at all the hot-rod builders that put a small-block Chevy in *everything*,

2) Stuff anything American (even a small-block Chevy) into a Honda or Toyota to improve its reliability.

Just kidding. Well about #1 anyway. And mostly #2. Mostly.

Seriously, I assume the TL probably has a high (over 10:1) static compression ratio. No matter how advanced the combustion chamber design and fuel/spark management, when the inlet temperature reaches a certain point you're GOING to get some ping without high-octane fuel. It sounds like yours may also have a carbon build-up problem, lack of enough EGR flow (EGR is actually good for reducing ping because it slows flame propagation), or some other small problem that's making it harder for the engine management system to cope. The higher the static CR, the more sensitive the engine is to all the other things that go on to limit ping. You could even have a coolant flow problem where part of the engine is running too hot by a few degrees, and that wouldn't necessarily show on the gauge. Little stuff that goes unnoticed on a less stressed engine can be really hard to track down. Good luck, and if you find a clear-cut cause, I'd like to know what it was just for curiosity's sake.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Have you considered trading it in for another car ?


Have you considered stuffing a nice Buick turbo in it?

Two of my evil fantasies, just to twist people's noses the wrong way:

1) stuff a turbocharged slant-six into a '63 split-window Corvette to get back at all the hot-rod builders that put a small-block Chevy in *everything*,

2) Stuff anything American (even a small-block Chevy) into a Honda or Toyota to improve its reliability.

Just kidding. Well about #1 anyway. And mostly #2. Mostly.

Seriously, I assume the TL probably has a high (over 10:1) static compression ratio. No matter how advanced the combustion chamber design and fuel/spark management, when the inlet temperature reaches a certain point you're GOING to get some ping without high-octane fuel. It sounds like yours may also have a carbon build-up problem, lack of enough EGR flow (EGR is actually good for reducing ping because it slows flame propagation), or some other small problem that's making it harder for the engine management system to cope. The higher the static CR, the more sensitive the engine is to all the other things that go on to limit ping. You could even have a coolant flow problem where part of the engine is running too hot by a few degrees, and that wouldn't necessarily show on the gauge. Little stuff that goes unnoticed on a less stressed engine can be really hard to track down. Good luck, and if you find a clear-cut cause, I'd like to know what it was just for curiosity's sake.




I'll definately let you guys know if I fix it. I'm waiting to do the water until I get this high octane fuel out of it so the difference will be noticable.

It's running 11.0 compression. I think that and the fact that the "small" cam is pretty small contribute to the part throttle ping. The knock is actually less when it's on the big lobe and heavy throttle but that may be due to fuel enrichment at the same time.

EGR flow is fine. I actually started it with the valve off and had a huge exhaust leak and intake leak that let the engine go to 4,500rpm. If there was a problem it would have to be in the valve iteslf but that looks pretty clean too.

I hope it's just carbon buildup since it's gotten progressively worse over the years.

 

[saaber1]

I've had good luck using this stuff in the intake pulling in with a basketball needle. Available at Napa for about $3.50ish. I also really like the lubro moly fuel injector cleaner

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: elpolk
A couple years back, one member (I think it was boxcartommie, but I may be wrong) decided to try 12 cSt GC in his 4.6L CV. He found the sluggishness so unacceptable he dumped the stuff early IIRC. And we're not picking on you guys who drive Ford modular powered vehicles -- this phenomenon has been reported in a wide range of other engines (certainly not all).


I could understand a perceivable difference in a small displacement, low powered car. I just have a hard time imagining a V8 with decent torque would be notably impacted by a few cSt.

In fact, my car flat runs better on 30-weights than it does on 20-weights of the same brand. I've tried M1 and PP in both viscosities.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: elpolk
A couple years back, one member (I think it was boxcartommie, but I may be wrong) decided to try 12 cSt GC in his 4.6L CV. He found the sluggishness so unacceptable he dumped the stuff early IIRC. And we're not picking on you guys who drive Ford modular powered vehicles -- this phenomenon has been reported in a wide range of other engines (certainly not all).


I could understand a perceivable difference in a small displacement, low powered car. I just have a hard time imagining a V8 with decent torque would be notably impacted by a few cSt.

In fact, my car flat runs better on 30-weights than it does on 20-weights of the same brand. I've tried M1 and PP in both viscosities.


My TL is a semi-low displacement car and it feels like it has more power on the 30wt over 20wt. Even if it doesn't, there's no chance it lost power and no sluggishness whatsoever (other than how slow it is anyway). I think the people who notice this would still notice it if you put a 40wt label on a 20wt quart of oil and dumped it in there.

 

[ffracer]

it is not the oil....

My mother has a 2005 TL with a 6-speed manual and she's 60+. this car is faster than my 97 M3.

You have something going on with the emissions or timing or something.

I would start with a full OBD-II scan, as her car gets 20 mpg reefing on it.

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

Earlier in this topic thread, Pablo mentioned about getting 'er clean. I think this is the ONLY route to achieving results that would seem satisfactory.

Fuel Power, FP Plus, is your friend. I'm a happy customer for 4 years now. Buy a couple gallon jugs and use 2oz per 5 gal for the first few tanks of gas. Then continue to use it...that's the key. By continuing to use it you'll keep the combustion chamber squeaky clean. While we can't solve poor engineering, we can keep things clean. I would wager your MPG goes up noticeably,too.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: ToyotaNSaturn
Earlier in this topic thread, Pablo mentioned about getting 'er clean. I think this is the ONLY route to achieving results that would seem satisfactory.

Fuel Power, FP Plus, is your friend. I'm a happy customer for 4 years now. Buy a couple gallon jugs and use 2oz per 5 gal for the first few tanks of gas. Then continue to use it...that's the key. By continuing to use it you'll keep the combustion chamber squeaky clean. While we can't solve poor engineering, we can keep things clean. I would wager your MPG goes up noticeably,too.



That's pretty much my thoughts. I think I may have carbon buildup and the 11.0 compression just makes any small problem a larger problem. As soon as the high octane gas is used up, I'm going to do the cleaning. This thread has caused me to think back at how this problem has progressed and the first summer was fine when brand new but it's gotten worse with each additional summer. It didn't start overnight. By the second summer I had 50,000 freeway miles on it.

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: ffracer
it is not the oil....

My mother has a 2005 TL with a 6-speed manual and she's 60+. this car is faster than my 97 M3.

You have something going on with the emissions or timing or something.

I would start with a full OBD-II scan, as her car gets 20 mpg reefing on it.


+1

My Wife's 06 TL gets in the very low 20s around town and 30+ on a long highway run a bit over the speed limit.

I do wish the compression were low enough to use regular, I would gladly take the small hit on power and economy.

 

[BuickGN]

I couldn't help it, just did the water through the intake. Car idles smoother and quieter. Might've just cleaned the plugs.

Time will tell when the good gas is out and I can see if it makes a difference. I'll also put it back on the scanner since I have a good idea of how much KR is normal.

 

[Whimsey]

Originally Posted By: ToyotaNSaturn
Earlier in this topic thread, Pablo mentioned about getting 'er clean. I think this is the ONLY route to achieving results that would seem satisfactory.

Fuel Power, FP Plus, is your friend. I'm a happy customer for 4 years now. Buy a couple gallon jugs and use 2oz per 5 gal for the first few tanks of gas. Then continue to use it...that's the key. By continuing to use it you'll keep the combustion chamber squeaky clean. While we can't solve poor engineering, we can keep things clean. I would wager your MPG goes up noticeably,too.



+++. GN, I have the opposite problem with my F-150 with the 4.6 V-8. I began pinging when the temps drop below ~57*F. This started in the fall of 2005. I began using hi-test for 9 months of the year to control the pinging. And it did mostly. Come June of 2008 we had a sudden hot spell and my truck ran horribly with the hi-test gas that was in it. I had ordered FP60 and began with the 2oz/5 gal and after 5 or so fuel refills I went to 1 oz/5 gal. I have been using it faithfully and can run regular all the time with no pinging below 57*F. And the truck runs better than ever with just using the FP60. To be honest my mpg hasn't changed. I guess it's the laws of physics, a big brick can only get so many mpg's . I also use FP60 in my 1996 Contour with the Zetec 4 and it has improved my mpg even with the introduction of the mpg killing ethanol. Plus it runs better with the FP60.

Whimsey