Is this oil certified TC-W3?
Is there any independent data of Saber vs. Other oils?
Is there any independent data of Saber vs. Other oils?
Amsoil Saber Outboard 2 Stroke Oil Questions
- Thread starter LargeCarManX2
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No but It is recommended for pre-mix use where TC-W3 or API TC by Amsoil
No
No
See if it's on the list here: http://www.nmma.org/certification/programs/oils/
If it's not? Doesn't mean it's bad oil, but I'd bet there is probably one part of the test sequence it couldn't pass. Amsoil would never admit it and double talk around why they didn't certify.
My personal experience with the oil in outboards was it was fine on motors that didn't troll or idle much. If they did they would foul a plug. This wasn't just my motor but everyone I know who used it.
If it's not? Doesn't mean it's bad oil, but I'd bet there is probably one part of the test sequence it couldn't pass. Amsoil would never admit it and double talk around why they didn't certify.
My personal experience with the oil in outboards was it was fine on motors that didn't troll or idle much. If they did they would foul a plug. This wasn't just my motor but everyone I know who used it.
Thank you for contacting AMSOIL with your concern.
In response to your inquiry, AMSOIL has chosen not to participate in the NMMA TC-W3 certification program and for good reason. We believe at this time it is not the most effective way to enable us to provide and continue to provide our customers with the highest quality product and at a realistic price. We have always realized this position would draw a degree of skepticism and some may question the quality of our offerings. When forced to choose between selling by volume or performance, we feel it is in the best interest of both the customer and AMSOIL to choose the latter. Also note, any company that would advertise suitable for TC-W3 applications without possessing adequate testing to support the claim would be foolhardy at best. This is especially true if that company expected to be in business for any extended period of time. AMSOIL has been providing product for marine two-cycle application for over 30 years. This track record and testing far in excess of that required within TC-W3 protocol allows use to continue to recommend its use with a high level of confidence.
Thank you again for the opportunity to respond to your concerns. As always, please feel free to contact us again if we can be of further assistance.
Sincerely,
David Anderson
Technical Product Manager, Power Sports Group
AMSOIL INC.
In response to your inquiry, AMSOIL has chosen not to participate in the NMMA TC-W3 certification program and for good reason. We believe at this time it is not the most effective way to enable us to provide and continue to provide our customers with the highest quality product and at a realistic price. We have always realized this position would draw a degree of skepticism and some may question the quality of our offerings. When forced to choose between selling by volume or performance, we feel it is in the best interest of both the customer and AMSOIL to choose the latter. Also note, any company that would advertise suitable for TC-W3 applications without possessing adequate testing to support the claim would be foolhardy at best. This is especially true if that company expected to be in business for any extended period of time. AMSOIL has been providing product for marine two-cycle application for over 30 years. This track record and testing far in excess of that required within TC-W3 protocol allows use to continue to recommend its use with a high level of confidence.
Thank you again for the opportunity to respond to your concerns. As always, please feel free to contact us again if we can be of further assistance.
Sincerely,
David Anderson
Technical Product Manager, Power Sports Group
AMSOIL INC.
What ratio were you mixing the Saber Outboard at?
100:1, kicker motors used mostly for trolling. This was before they renamed it Saber, but amsdealer tells me it hasn't changed.
I also stupidly seized up a 500 husky with it in the desert. The 100:1 mix worked fine in woods races, but couldn't take the heat of an open course.
Amsoil had better products for twostrokes IMO. I'd leave the 100:1 sabre to the weedwackers and leafblowers. Same with opti, neo, or any of the other 100:1 stuff.
I also stupidly seized up a 500 husky with it in the desert. The 100:1 mix worked fine in woods races, but couldn't take the heat of an open course.
Amsoil had better products for twostrokes IMO. I'd leave the 100:1 sabre to the weedwackers and leafblowers. Same with opti, neo, or any of the other 100:1 stuff.
The SABRE outboard and the SABRE professional use two completely different additive chemistries. The TC-W3 product uses low temp ashless dispersants to deal with the type of deposits you find with relatively low rpm, water cooled motors like outboards and first gen. jet skiis.
The "JASO-FD" SABRE professional uses a low ash, high detergent chemistry for use in very high rpm, very hot running air cooled engines and is NOT for use in outboard motors.
Based on my experience with these products to date, I'd start out running the SABRE Outboard @ 80:1 and see how the plugs and exhaust ports look after 20-25 hours, then adjust the mix ratio if need be....
TS
The "JASO-FD" SABRE professional uses a low ash, high detergent chemistry for use in very high rpm, very hot running air cooled engines and is NOT for use in outboard motors.
Based on my experience with these products to date, I'd start out running the SABRE Outboard @ 80:1 and see how the plugs and exhaust ports look after 20-25 hours, then adjust the mix ratio if need be....
TS
LCM - thanks. As you found out Amsoil is not big into being controlled by third parties.
Not true actually. Both 100:1 products have changed and in particular they are not the same. The TC-W3 Saber Outboard is ideal for trolling motors and will not foul plugs.
The regular Saber Professional is what you want for yard equipment, etc.
Neither is a race oil. Amsoil's other 2 stroke oils (Dominator and Interceptor) are better for those applications.
Not true actually. Both 100:1 products have changed and in particular they are not the same. The TC-W3 Saber Outboard is ideal for trolling motors and will not foul plugs.
The regular Saber Professional is what you want for yard equipment, etc.
Neither is a race oil. Amsoil's other 2 stroke oils (Dominator and Interceptor) are better for those applications.
Thanks Pablo, when I was buying it there was only one 100:1 product. At the time it was safe, best, #1, fit's all product. Amsoil has wisely expanded their twostroke product line and recommendations.
So are we to believe that Amsoil knows more about what oil standards are applicable to outboard motors than the MFG of said motor?
Truth is Amsoil AIO is not formulated to the standard and will not pass tcw3. Incidentally I tested a large quantity of AIO vs Yamalube 2M in identical outboards. The AIO smelled less, smoke was about the same and the motor ran on 2M was much cleaner internaly.
Ditto with the 100:1 oil. There is now way a 100:1 oil will pass the FD test as portions of that test are ran at a 16:1 mix ratio. Further I have tested the last generation 100:1 beofre saber and didnt find it too appealing.
Truth is Amsoil AIO is not formulated to the standard and will not pass tcw3. Incidentally I tested a large quantity of AIO vs Yamalube 2M in identical outboards. The AIO smelled less, smoke was about the same and the motor ran on 2M was much cleaner internaly.
Ditto with the 100:1 oil. There is now way a 100:1 oil will pass the FD test as portions of that test are ran at a 16:1 mix ratio. Further I have tested the last generation 100:1 beofre saber and didnt find it too appealing.
AIO has been gone for 3-4 years and you haven't tested the latest outboard 100:1 product. So why are you guessing on the quality of the new stuff?
Thanks for pointing out the inconsistencies. The truth is some folks will sometimes say just about anything about Amsoil. Good or bad. I’ll be the first to say Amsoil played fast and loose in the past with their 2-stroke offerings. When the new era R&D team kicked in at Amsoil, this is one of the first areas they cleaned up. I will say Amsoil knows a LOT about 2-stroke oils. Then they started moving through the other products. Much to my pleasure!
Certain folks go through life with a stiffey for Amsoil. I gave up awhile ago trying to change negative minds. I just wish folks would publish their home tests with repeatable data and photos. Anyway – get ready for a backlash.
Pablo, if you want some stiffies talk to some snowmobile guys about oil see what some of them say about AMSOIL. I love the ones that say that AMSOIL carboned up their exhaust valves on their trail sled and when you ask what and ratio the injector is running they come back with something like Domainator at 40:1. Bah!!! Use the right oil and run it at a correct ratio and the problem would be solved.
Snowmobile stiffie here. The reason dominator may not be a best choice for sleds is it's lack or rust preventing additive. Amsoils own site now gives us that information, finally after many complaints. They list it as "race" oil for sleds, and 40:1 is not an unreasonable ratio for any twostroke sled, IMO. It's a good oil when used in the right application. Clean ex-valves is not always synonymous with best protection at extremes.
"IO has been gone for 3-4 years and you haven't tested the latest outboard 100:1 product. So why are you guessing on the quality of the new stuff? "
I thought AIO was the code for HP injector. It was HP injector I tested and the test and oil where purchased last spring form Canadian tire. The stuff is mediocre at best and it has no advantage over Yamalube 2m, be it price or performance.
Dominator is terrible oil for most applications. I have tested it and tore down engines ran on it.
I will not be testing any of the new 100:1 formulations as I have no desire to and have no desire to run oil lean ratios.
Pablo, has it occurred to you that the reason Amsoil gets a bad rap is because the have a long history of #@$%! marketing and out right lieing at times? This still goes on with their references to what standards their two cycle oils meet.
I thought AIO was the code for HP injector. It was HP injector I tested and the test and oil where purchased last spring form Canadian tire. The stuff is mediocre at best and it has no advantage over Yamalube 2m, be it price or performance.
Dominator is terrible oil for most applications. I have tested it and tore down engines ran on it.
I will not be testing any of the new 100:1 formulations as I have no desire to and have no desire to run oil lean ratios.
Pablo, has it occurred to you that the reason Amsoil gets a bad rap is because the have a long history of #@$%! marketing and out right lieing at times? This still goes on with their references to what standards their two cycle oils meet.
If you used Dominator for anything other than full throttle racing, you won't have good results and the company says as much, so what were you expecting there? As for the new 100:1 marine stuff, I'm sure it would stand up well to your unbiased and completely scientific testing methods. They finally specialized their 2-cycle oils and you still aren't happy despite your refusal to try the stuff. I've had clean performance with the Saber Pro in all my 2-cycle land stuff, so I have little doubt that the marine stuff is decent as well. If you expect it to work well in a 16:1 test despite it being formulated for 100:1, then that is a pretty flimsy reason to lambaste something you haven't used.
"If you used Dominator for anything other than full throttle racing, you won't have good results and the company says as much, so what were you expecting there?"
The engines where out of MX racing bikes.
"I've had clean performance with the Saber Pro in all my 2-cycle land stuff, "
I have had clean performance from a variety of synthetic and partially synthetic oils costing less than Amsoil. And at the 32:1 ratios that I much prefer for heavy use equipment. I am sticking with Mobil 2R at $7 per quart as its great stuff at a great price.
"As for the new 100:1 marine stuff, I'm sure it would stand up well to your unbiased and completely scientific testing methods."
My methods where totaly unbiased, but form a statistics stand point they dont mean mu7ch as that would take 100's of units. I only compared two identical new motors, on identical boats, operated for equal time under the exact same conditions. The test was based on deposits levels of the head, exhaust port and piston crown as well as visable smoke and smell.
Smoke and smell can be percieved differantly by differant people, but deposits are deposits. Amsoil HPI had more deposits than Yamalube 2M and I PERCIEVED HPI to smoke only slightly if any less, but actually smell worse.
I would also point out that the engines in question are ran daily as part of a lodge operation in NW Ontario. They accumulate more hours in a season than most people put on a motor in a lifetime.
"If you expect it to work well in a 16:1 test despite it being formulated for 100:1, then that is a pretty flimsy reason to lambaste something you haven't used. "
I never said I tested anything at 16:1. I did say that the ISO EGD and JASO FC,FD standards have tests that are ran at 16:1 and this is 100% correct. Your right, in that Amsoil 100:1 would never pass such a test, and its for this reason that Amsoil does not sell a EGD, or FC oil save Interceptor, which may or may not pass the tests.
The engines where out of MX racing bikes.
"I've had clean performance with the Saber Pro in all my 2-cycle land stuff, "
I have had clean performance from a variety of synthetic and partially synthetic oils costing less than Amsoil. And at the 32:1 ratios that I much prefer for heavy use equipment. I am sticking with Mobil 2R at $7 per quart as its great stuff at a great price.
"As for the new 100:1 marine stuff, I'm sure it would stand up well to your unbiased and completely scientific testing methods."
My methods where totaly unbiased, but form a statistics stand point they dont mean mu7ch as that would take 100's of units. I only compared two identical new motors, on identical boats, operated for equal time under the exact same conditions. The test was based on deposits levels of the head, exhaust port and piston crown as well as visable smoke and smell.
Smoke and smell can be percieved differantly by differant people, but deposits are deposits. Amsoil HPI had more deposits than Yamalube 2M and I PERCIEVED HPI to smoke only slightly if any less, but actually smell worse.
I would also point out that the engines in question are ran daily as part of a lodge operation in NW Ontario. They accumulate more hours in a season than most people put on a motor in a lifetime.
"If you expect it to work well in a 16:1 test despite it being formulated for 100:1, then that is a pretty flimsy reason to lambaste something you haven't used. "
I never said I tested anything at 16:1. I did say that the ISO EGD and JASO FC,FD standards have tests that are ran at 16:1 and this is 100% correct. Your right, in that Amsoil 100:1 would never pass such a test, and its for this reason that Amsoil does not sell a EGD, or FC oil save Interceptor, which may or may not pass the tests.
Amsoil never claims to MEET or EXCEED any of the specs so it's sort of a moot point? The verabage is:
"Saber is recommended for pre-mix where ISO-L-EGD, JASO FD or API TC is specified."
or
It is recommended for pre-mix use where TC-W3 or API TC is specified.
I'm sure the 100:1 does pass many parts of those tests just fine, but probably not all of them. Like Blano says the 16:1 test would be hard for a 100:1 oil in the iso-jaso testing. For the tcw3 testing the oils has to be run at twice it's ratio for piston scuffing tests, so the 100:1 would have to run at 200:1. There might be problem there too IMO.
I'd like to think amsoil includes the specs in their product data to help the consumer choose the right product, not as a claim of meeting the spec.
FWIW, my kids ran dominator at 24:1 in kx80's and it worked well. Not sure it would have turned out too good if they listened to the guy (relative) who gave it to them, he advised 50:1 (per amsoil). But all turned out well, the kids got free oil, the relative got amsoil sticker on the bikes.
"Saber is recommended for pre-mix where ISO-L-EGD, JASO FD or API TC is specified."
or
It is recommended for pre-mix use where TC-W3 or API TC is specified.
I'm sure the 100:1 does pass many parts of those tests just fine, but probably not all of them. Like Blano says the 16:1 test would be hard for a 100:1 oil in the iso-jaso testing. For the tcw3 testing the oils has to be run at twice it's ratio for piston scuffing tests, so the 100:1 would have to run at 200:1. There might be problem there too IMO.
I'd like to think amsoil includes the specs in their product data to help the consumer choose the right product, not as a claim of meeting the spec.
FWIW, my kids ran dominator at 24:1 in kx80's and it worked well. Not sure it would have turned out too good if they listened to the guy (relative) who gave it to them, he advised 50:1 (per amsoil). But all turned out well, the kids got free oil, the relative got amsoil sticker on the bikes.
Your wrong, AMSOIL does have a EGD oil in the ATP Saber Professional.
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