Amsoil ATF/Torque-Drive.
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Pablo- I reckon that it's incumbent upon the party making a positive claim to prove it. MOST oil companies prove that their fluid meets a certain spec by getting it licensed, which REQUIRES independent verification. Just saying "it meets the spec because we say so and we don't have to prove anything" doesn't cut it for me... nor ANY OEM.
Personally, I think Amsoil products are ok... nothing particularly wrong with them. I mean- it's oil... it's slippery... won't make your transmission seize up or anything. But I also reckon the vast majority of Amsoil users would be served just as well by Supertech... in fact, they'd claim the same miracle results if ya'll were simply re-bottling Supertech.
There's a psychological phenomenon called "confirmation bias". Look it up and you'll find a description of your average Amsoil customer. It's a very human failing- even a mechanical god like myself can't claim immunity.
Personally, I think Amsoil products are ok... nothing particularly wrong with them. I mean- it's oil... it's slippery... won't make your transmission seize up or anything. But I also reckon the vast majority of Amsoil users would be served just as well by Supertech... in fact, they'd claim the same miracle results if ya'll were simply re-bottling Supertech.
There's a psychological phenomenon called "confirmation bias". Look it up and you'll find a description of your average Amsoil customer. It's a very human failing- even a mechanical god like myself can't claim immunity.
Originally Posted By: onion
.......vast majority of Amsoil users would be served just as well by Supertech... in fact, they'd claim the same miracle results if ya'll were simply re-bottling Supertech.
Let's post some proof of this. Or did you just pull this out of your...........?
.......vast majority of Amsoil users would be served just as well by Supertech... in fact, they'd claim the same miracle results if ya'll were simply re-bottling Supertech.
Let's post some proof of this. Or did you just pull this out of your...........?
Originally Posted By: onion
Pablo- I reckon that it's incumbent upon the party making a positive claim to prove it. MOST oil companies prove that their fluid meets a certain spec by getting it licensed, which REQUIRES independent verification.
Hardly. Most API licenses require internal verification by the licensee and nothing more.
Pablo- I reckon that it's incumbent upon the party making a positive claim to prove it. MOST oil companies prove that their fluid meets a certain spec by getting it licensed, which REQUIRES independent verification.
Hardly. Most API licenses require internal verification by the licensee and nothing more.
G-MAN speaks the truth about API. API is located in an office in Washington, it is not a lab. The API, oil companies, additive companies, and the car manufactures come up with all these test for API approval. An oil company blends their product, test it, and if it meets the specs, submits their test to API along with a nice size check. That's how you get approval for the little donut on the back of the bottle and the ILSAC logo on the front.
Test are run and forms are filled out, but it's the oil and chemical companies doing it.
Test are run and forms are filled out, but it's the oil and chemical companies doing it.
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Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Hardly. Most API licenses require internal verification by the licensee and nothing more.
This is kind of what I was getting at. What is to stop a company from changing the formula once they get their license.
I take it motor oil is internal verification and ATF licenses are verified by the auto manufacturers?
One of the main points several members on here make about the lack of licenses from Redline, Amsoil, and others is that without the license they don't trust the company to meet the specs they say they meet. Almost as if there is some malicious intent. To me, unless every batch of ATF is tested by the company granting the license, or it's monitored somehow, it seems that there would be plenty of opportunities to let quality slip for a company so inclined. So it still comes down to trust. Personally, there are companies out there with licensed fluids that I would trust less than Redline or Amsoil.
That's why I asked specifically how ATF licenses are enforced.
Hardly. Most API licenses require internal verification by the licensee and nothing more.
This is kind of what I was getting at. What is to stop a company from changing the formula once they get their license.
I take it motor oil is internal verification and ATF licenses are verified by the auto manufacturers?
One of the main points several members on here make about the lack of licenses from Redline, Amsoil, and others is that without the license they don't trust the company to meet the specs they say they meet. Almost as if there is some malicious intent. To me, unless every batch of ATF is tested by the company granting the license, or it's monitored somehow, it seems that there would be plenty of opportunities to let quality slip for a company so inclined. So it still comes down to trust. Personally, there are companies out there with licensed fluids that I would trust less than Redline or Amsoil.
That's why I asked specifically how ATF licenses are enforced.
Originally Posted By: Canawler
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Hardly. Most API licenses require internal verification by the licensee and nothing more.
This is kind of what I was getting at. What is to stop a company from changing the formula once they get their license.
I take it motor oil is internal verification and ATF licenses are verified by the auto manufacturers?
Only ATF+4 that I know of. All the rest (Mercon, Dexron, etc.) it's left up to the blender to verify that the fluid meets the OEM specs. And that's one of the reasons Chrysler is so stringent on the ATF+4 license. A typical ATF license includes performance specs and it's up to the blender to come up with a "brew" that can meet those specs. For ATF+4 Chrysler requires the licensee to use a specific pre-approved additive package made by Lubrizol and use Group III base oil from a list of pre-approved suppliers. Thus, if you don't follow Chrysler's "recipe" to the letter, you can't license your fluid as ATF+4.
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Hardly. Most API licenses require internal verification by the licensee and nothing more.
This is kind of what I was getting at. What is to stop a company from changing the formula once they get their license.
I take it motor oil is internal verification and ATF licenses are verified by the auto manufacturers?
Only ATF+4 that I know of. All the rest (Mercon, Dexron, etc.) it's left up to the blender to verify that the fluid meets the OEM specs. And that's one of the reasons Chrysler is so stringent on the ATF+4 license. A typical ATF license includes performance specs and it's up to the blender to come up with a "brew" that can meet those specs. For ATF+4 Chrysler requires the licensee to use a specific pre-approved additive package made by Lubrizol and use Group III base oil from a list of pre-approved suppliers. Thus, if you don't follow Chrysler's "recipe" to the letter, you can't license your fluid as ATF+4.
GEOS...........................
My BBQ sauce is better than that stuff in the store, but I did not pay for that fancy label.
Walmart is worth $195 BILLION...
I would hope that they could afford to pay for a license...
Onion, this is getting old. Is your hobby to beat dead horses, resurect them, kill them, and repeat?
Some Amsoil products can't pass certain "licenses" because of the amount of certain additives. However, engine tear downs and used oil analysis are almost always positive. Many of the said limitations on additives are for tree hugging reasons and have nothing to do with protection or performance of the product in a vehicle.
I'd rather have a company that bucks the industry and offers superior products, than a product from someone else that applies for a license and probably does the bare minimum to pass it.
Give it a rest, this is getting real LAME real fast...
I would hope that they could afford to pay for a license...
Onion, this is getting old. Is your hobby to beat dead horses, resurect them, kill them, and repeat?
Some Amsoil products can't pass certain "licenses" because of the amount of certain additives. However, engine tear downs and used oil analysis are almost always positive. Many of the said limitations on additives are for tree hugging reasons and have nothing to do with protection or performance of the product in a vehicle.
I'd rather have a company that bucks the industry and offers superior products, than a product from someone else that applies for a license and probably does the bare minimum to pass it.
Give it a rest, this is getting real LAME real fast...
Concerning ATF+4, which IMO was one of the 1st 'real' capable ATFs from an automaker, the spec is over a decade old. Have there been any changes to basestock's, VII's, additive technology........... in the past decade? Does anyone not see any room for improvement anywhere? Still waiting on ATF+5.
Concerning ANY boutique fluid from any boutique supplier, they've been improving on the factory spec's since they started their business. Automakers newer requirements, IMO, are simply trying to catch up with the boutique manufacturers. BTW, its also easier to spec a tougher fluid then to re-engineer a component to last longer. Usually, a new OE fluid is the automakers bandaid for an existing problem.
Lets say that 10 years ago I came out with the DexronVI formula and called it superduper-ATF. It wasn't licensed and didn't meet the DexIII specs, so many would argue against it. But, when the automaker does it, its ok.
Waiting for the automaker for an improvement is no different then being an ostrich with your head stuck in the sand. I wonder what Dexron-7 or 8 holds for us in the future.
Walmart is simply a reseller. With their volume, and their buying habits, they can claim anything they want. Also, the company is big enough to almost defeat anyone that challenges it. And, when you cut the price down, something has to suffer somewhere. Batch quality? test sample rate?
Concerning the Subaru, I'd go thicker. My votes for ATD.
If you're running high temps, consider a bigger cooler or sump.
Concerning ANY boutique fluid from any boutique supplier, they've been improving on the factory spec's since they started their business. Automakers newer requirements, IMO, are simply trying to catch up with the boutique manufacturers. BTW, its also easier to spec a tougher fluid then to re-engineer a component to last longer. Usually, a new OE fluid is the automakers bandaid for an existing problem.
Lets say that 10 years ago I came out with the DexronVI formula and called it superduper-ATF. It wasn't licensed and didn't meet the DexIII specs, so many would argue against it. But, when the automaker does it, its ok.
Waiting for the automaker for an improvement is no different then being an ostrich with your head stuck in the sand. I wonder what Dexron-7 or 8 holds for us in the future.
Walmart is simply a reseller. With their volume, and their buying habits, they can claim anything they want. Also, the company is big enough to almost defeat anyone that challenges it. And, when you cut the price down, something has to suffer somewhere. Batch quality? test sample rate?
Concerning the Subaru, I'd go thicker. My votes for ATD.
If you're running high temps, consider a bigger cooler or sump.
Originally Posted By: unDummy
Concerning ATF+4, which IMO was one of the 1st 'real' capable ATFs from an automaker, the spec is over a decade old. Have there been any changes to basestock's, VII's, additive technology........... in the past decade? Does anyone not see any room for improvement anywhere? Still waiting on ATF+5.
And just what would you improve about it? ATF+4 was SO far ahead of its time, it's not even funny. It uses the most shear stable VI improver Lubrizol has ever developed. It can't be made with anything but Group III, something that can't be said for any other OEM spec ATF, including Dex VI. In all but the most extreme conditions, it can maintain it's friction characteristics for 100,000+ miles. In short, it works. The only "improvements" you could make would be tantamount to reinventing the wheel and all the consumer would wind up with would a more expensive ATF with negligible "real world" performance improvements over the existing fluid.
Concerning ATF+4, which IMO was one of the 1st 'real' capable ATFs from an automaker, the spec is over a decade old. Have there been any changes to basestock's, VII's, additive technology........... in the past decade? Does anyone not see any room for improvement anywhere? Still waiting on ATF+5.
And just what would you improve about it? ATF+4 was SO far ahead of its time, it's not even funny. It uses the most shear stable VI improver Lubrizol has ever developed. It can't be made with anything but Group III, something that can't be said for any other OEM spec ATF, including Dex VI. In all but the most extreme conditions, it can maintain it's friction characteristics for 100,000+ miles. In short, it works. The only "improvements" you could make would be tantamount to reinventing the wheel and all the consumer would wind up with would a more expensive ATF with negligible "real world" performance improvements over the existing fluid.
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
It uses the most shear stable VI improver Lubrizol has ever developed. It can't be made with anything but Group III, something that can't be said for any other OEM spec ATF, including Dex VI.
Nissan Matic J and S are BOTH Group III or better. The "S" in Matic S stands for synthetic.
It uses the most shear stable VI improver Lubrizol has ever developed. It can't be made with anything but Group III, something that can't be said for any other OEM spec ATF, including Dex VI.
Nissan Matic J and S are BOTH Group III or better. The "S" in Matic S stands for synthetic.
Originally Posted By: SnakeOil
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
It uses the most shear stable VI improver Lubrizol has ever developed. It can't be made with anything but Group III, something that can't be said for any other OEM spec ATF, including Dex VI.
Nissan Matic J and S are BOTH Group III or better. The "S" in Matic S stands for synthetic.
I doubt if J and S are both Group III since the primary thing that distinguishes J and S is the base oil.
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
It uses the most shear stable VI improver Lubrizol has ever developed. It can't be made with anything but Group III, something that can't be said for any other OEM spec ATF, including Dex VI.
Nissan Matic J and S are BOTH Group III or better. The "S" in Matic S stands for synthetic.
I doubt if J and S are both Group III since the primary thing that distinguishes J and S is the base oil.
Originally Posted By: unDummy
Concerning the Subaru, I'd go thicker. My votes for ATD.
If you're running high temps, consider a bigger cooler or sump.
ATD is the way I have been leaning. Adding cooling/capacity will both be somewhat difficult. Looks like I will be ordering a new pan, and kicking it out. An additional gallon of fluid, should help...
Concerning the Subaru, I'd go thicker. My votes for ATD.
If you're running high temps, consider a bigger cooler or sump.
ATD is the way I have been leaning. Adding cooling/capacity will both be somewhat difficult. Looks like I will be ordering a new pan, and kicking it out. An additional gallon of fluid, should help...
Nippon oil Nissan ATF matic-S = Highly refined petroleum oil > 80%, and quart, I expected more.
G-man: I want an ATF that maintains its frictional characteristics for 500,000 miles. 100k just doesn't cut it!
I want a fluid that provides better MPG(kudos to ws/lv/sp/d6 for making an effort). The 7cst of ATF+4 is just too thick.
How about 5cst with GL5 levels of protection?? Yeah, lets cut wear at the bearings/gears/chains/washers/pump....by 90%.
And, since those winter trips to Maine cause the cold ultra slow shifts, I want better -40c(lets say under 3000cp).
I need some really good fluids to keep my domestic vehicles happy and like new. They will become collectible classics when the big 3 fold.
G-man: I want an ATF that maintains its frictional characteristics for 500,000 miles. 100k just doesn't cut it!
I want a fluid that provides better MPG(kudos to ws/lv/sp/d6 for making an effort). The 7cst of ATF+4 is just too thick.
How about 5cst with GL5 levels of protection?? Yeah, lets cut wear at the bearings/gears/chains/washers/pump....by 90%.
And, since those winter trips to Maine cause the cold ultra slow shifts, I want better -40c(lets say under 3000cp).
I need some really good fluids to keep my domestic vehicles happy and like new. They will become collectible classics when the big 3 fold.
Originally Posted By: unDummy
Nippon oil Nissan ATF matic-S = Highly refined petroleum oil > 80%, and quart, I expected more.
G-man: I want an ATF that maintains its frictional characteristics for 500,000 miles. 100k just doesn't cut it!
I want a fluid that provides better MPG(kudos to ws/lv/sp/d6 for making an effort). The 7cst of ATF+4 is just too thick.
How about 5cst with GL5 levels of protection?? Yeah, lets cut wear at the bearings/gears/chains/washers/pump....by 90%.
And, since those winter trips to Maine cause the cold ultra slow shifts, I want better -40c(lets say under 3000cp).
Add the need to be available everywhere, for less than $10 qt.
Nippon oil Nissan ATF matic-S = Highly refined petroleum oil > 80%, and quart, I expected more.
G-man: I want an ATF that maintains its frictional characteristics for 500,000 miles. 100k just doesn't cut it!
I want a fluid that provides better MPG(kudos to ws/lv/sp/d6 for making an effort). The 7cst of ATF+4 is just too thick.
How about 5cst with GL5 levels of protection?? Yeah, lets cut wear at the bearings/gears/chains/washers/pump....by 90%.
And, since those winter trips to Maine cause the cold ultra slow shifts, I want better -40c(lets say under 3000cp).
Add the need to be available everywhere, for less than $10 qt.
Originally Posted By: unDummy
Nippon oil Nissan ATF matic-S = Highly refined petroleum oil > 80%, and quart, I expected more.
G-man: I want an ATF that maintains its frictional characteristics for 500,000 miles. 100k just doesn't cut it!
I want a fluid that provides better MPG(kudos to ws/lv/sp/d6 for making an effort). The 7cst of ATF+4 is just too thick.
How about 5cst with GL5 levels of protection?? Yeah, lets cut wear at the bearings/gears/chains/washers/pump....by 90%.
And, since those winter trips to Maine cause the cold ultra slow shifts, I want better -40c(lets say under 3000cp).
I need some really good fluids to keep my domestic vehicles happy and like new. They will become collectible classics when the big 3 fold.
Give me a break.
You represent 0.0000001% of the market. The rest of the consumers are perfectly satisfied with the durability and performance of OEM fills. Most consumers are just fine with their transmissions lasting 100 to 150k miles. Why do you expect the market to cater to you when you only make up an extremely small fraction of the market?
Nippon oil Nissan ATF matic-S = Highly refined petroleum oil > 80%, and quart, I expected more.
G-man: I want an ATF that maintains its frictional characteristics for 500,000 miles. 100k just doesn't cut it!
I want a fluid that provides better MPG(kudos to ws/lv/sp/d6 for making an effort). The 7cst of ATF+4 is just too thick.
How about 5cst with GL5 levels of protection?? Yeah, lets cut wear at the bearings/gears/chains/washers/pump....by 90%.
And, since those winter trips to Maine cause the cold ultra slow shifts, I want better -40c(lets say under 3000cp).
I need some really good fluids to keep my domestic vehicles happy and like new. They will become collectible classics when the big 3 fold.
Give me a break.
You represent 0.0000001% of the market. The rest of the consumers are perfectly satisfied with the durability and performance of OEM fills. Most consumers are just fine with their transmissions lasting 100 to 150k miles. Why do you expect the market to cater to you when you only make up an extremely small fraction of the market?
Originally Posted By: unDummy
I want an ATF that maintains its frictional characteristics for 500,000 miles. 100k just doesn't cut it!
I want a fluid that provides better MPG(kudos to ws/lv/sp/d6 for making an effort). The 7cst of ATF+4 is just too thick.
How about 5cst with GL5 levels of protection?? Yeah, lets cut wear at the bearings/gears/chains/washers/pump....by 90%.
And, since those winter trips to Maine cause the cold ultra slow shifts, I want better -40c(lets say under 3000cp).
Let me know when you find it!
I want an ATF that maintains its frictional characteristics for 500,000 miles. 100k just doesn't cut it!
I want a fluid that provides better MPG(kudos to ws/lv/sp/d6 for making an effort). The 7cst of ATF+4 is just too thick.
How about 5cst with GL5 levels of protection?? Yeah, lets cut wear at the bearings/gears/chains/washers/pump....by 90%.
And, since those winter trips to Maine cause the cold ultra slow shifts, I want better -40c(lets say under 3000cp).
Let me know when you find it!
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