All that acid in RLI oil (Renewable Lubricants)

[RI_RS4]

Indy,

Another point, 99% of all UOA's on this site are from Blackstone. None of which test for TAN. Most of which don't even test for TBN. That tends to distort everyone's mental perspective.


High TAN is a precursor to oxidation and deposit formation, as indicated by oxidation, Nitration, soot, and insolubles. Looking at all of these together, along with TBN gives the full picture of engine oil performance.

 

[JoeFromPA]

From everything I've read, RLI starts off with a TAN around 2.0-3.0 but barely moves from there.

I'm no expert on TAN, but here's a useful summary I found:

"Total Acid Number (TAN)
TAN is a property typically associated with industrial oils. It is defined as the amount of acid and acid-like material in the oil. Oxidation and nitration resins make up the majority of this material. As the oil is used, acidic components build up in the lubricant causing the TAN number to increase. A high TAN number represents the potential for accelerated rust, corrosion and oxidation and is a signal that the oil should be replaced. Critical TAN numbers are dependant on oil type. Typically R&O and light duty oils have a maximum TAN of 2 while anti-wear and EP oils may have maximum levels of 3 to 4.

TAN - TBN Ratios in Engine Oils
TAN by itself is of limited value in determining oil condition of an engine oil due to the fact that it represents a combination of different chemical characteristics. The acid-like nature of anti-wear additives found in most modern engine oils cause a high initial TAN. Greatest benefit is derived from the TAN by comparing it to the TBN. TAN increases in service as TBN decreases. The point at which these two numbers meet has been indicated as the maximum useful oil change interval for that type of engine in that type of service. Studies have shown that when TAN exceeds TBN, engine wear accelerates at abnormally high rates."

Source: http://www.usoilcheck.com/oilchek/services/used+oil+analysis/tutorial/tbn+tan.asp



From what I can tell, there are multiple different forms of oil acidity and TAN does not differentiate (organic vs. inorganic, corrosion-causing vs. inert, etc.)

The concern, to me, would be when an engine's TAN number has grown a fair amount from VOA with significant decrease in TBN, and at the same time a concerning increase in dissolved metals (i.e. metals that show up on UOA). I'm making an assumption based upon my elementary chemistry knowledge, but I assume acidity-based engine wear would show up as dissolved metals.

From everything I've read about RLI, it's an excellent choice for your engine for the long haul. So would PP 5w30 though, or many other choices. So for me, it's about what you want out of it.

Joe

 

[Built_Well]

Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Fuel diluting engines are awful for acid formation, and RLI is often used in high fuel diluters.


That's a very good point. I think my Camry's 2AZ engine is a low fuel-diluter(??), so I guess it'll be interesting to see its BioSyn TAN and TBN numbers when I get a BioSyn UOA after 6,000 or 7,000 oil miles (and/or 8 or 9 months)--just 2 more months to go and/or 1,000 or 2,000 more miles of driving.

 

[Built_Well]

Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Another point, 99% of all UOA's on this site are from Blackstone. None of which test for TAN. Most of which don't even test for TBN.


Blackstone will give you a TAN and TBN number if you pay extra for them, which I did. You can see the TAN and TBN numbers on my Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 UOA from Blackstone that I posted last year

By the way, thanks very much for your great list of TAN / TBN numbers in your ealier post

 

[cosynthetics]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
Also, with all due respect to RI-S4, he sold his car after a year or two. It's not like he was planning to hold onto the car for a decade or two like me [chuckle]

So I gotta be extra re-assured before I use the high-TAN R.L.I. oil in my car twice in a row. At this point, I'm much more inclined to use Amsoil or Red Line for the next OCI and save my remaining RLI BioSyn for another time.


I never heard of RLI befor coming to BITOG. What is the purpose of buying such oils when great OTC oil like M1, PP, or Valv is available? Just wondering.


Exactly. It's a waste of money.

 

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted By: cosynthetics
Originally Posted By: tig1


I never heard of RLI befor coming to BITOG. What is the purpose of buying such oils when great OTC oil like M1, PP, or Valv is available? Just wondering.


Exactly. It's a waste of money.


So I assume then that you use the full value of your oil?

RLI is for people who want to try something exotic, buy 100% (or near enough) american, want to use something that you can pour out on the ground and it'll biodegrade in our lifetime, etc.

Or for people like RLI_RS4 who want to develop their own unique lubricant for a near-impossible application.

 

[JAG]

Quote:
RLI is for people who want to try something exotic, buy 100% (or near enough) american, want to use something that you can pour out on the ground and it'll biodegrade in our lifetime, etc.
The PAO, environmentally unfriendly additives, and the toxins put in it from combustion make pouring it into the ground not a good idea.

 

[ericgl]

Polyol esters have a naturally high acid number. I am assuming this oil is a plant based POE.

The increase in TAN is an indication of oxidation over time. One test by itself doesn't really mean much.

 

[Crashbox]

Sounds like used RLI would be good for my rhododendrons and azaleas

In reality, though, if I wasn't such a staunch user of AMSOIL I would most certainly give RLI a whirl, given what I've read on BITOG about it. The RLI series of oils do get rave reviews here.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
Also, with all due respect to RI-S4, he sold his car after a year or two. It's not like he was planning to hold onto the car for a decade or two like me [chuckle]

So I gotta be extra re-assured before I use the high-TAN R.L.I. oil in my car twice in a row. At this point, I'm much more inclined to use Amsoil or Red Line for the next OCI and save my remaining RLI BioSyn for another time.


I never heard of RLI befor coming to BITOG. What is the purpose of buying such oils when great OTC oil like M1, PP, or Valv is available? Just wondering.


+1 I've read a lot about the oil, and honestly I'm not impressed, especially with the price tag. Sorry.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
demarpaint - I agree with your comments. There have been many attempts to produce consumer suitable lubricants of the RL type - in a general sense. This has been going on for well over 100 years

Most of the meaningful development took place in Germany in the 1930s-1945 era

On the way many such lubricants have failed - some have endured (Castrol R for instance)!

The original 1996 "GC" - Castrol Formula SLX 0W-30 - was a failure in real world use - prior to that their 1977 Formula R Synthetic 15W-50 was a good product but was converted to a more realistic formulation within two-three years in the public marketplace (introduced in 1977 - totally reformulated by 1980)

In recent times FUCHS Titan GT1 0W-20 has survived for a long time - at least nine years. This is a totally zinc free rapidly biodegradable "unconventionable" lubricant (90% biodegradable within 21 days - CEC L 33-A-93)- no doubt it had its foundations around 70 years ago

When esterification is part of the formulation process the wide range of acids used/produced no doubt could have effects that become apparent with consumer use (in the "real" world). Some of these findings were documented in the 1930-40 "German" era and subseqently too

IMO until any lubricant is Quality tested via API or ACEA and then finally achieves an engine Manufacturer's endorsement one should be mindful of the lack of known durabilty

Many Oil Companies such as Castrol maintain large fleets of vehicles that are used as real world test vehicles. These are in day to day use in many applications by every day drivers. That is what field testing is all about - especially with tear down and measure up as the final part of the test regime!

IMO any lubricant that rapidly raises its TAN compared with others in the same application needs to be carefully monitored. That is not to say that it is a non-performer, just that care in its use and with the OCI etc is needed to obtain its full potential and gain understanding. Of course only tear down inspections of a truely representative group of engine families will provide the answer

 

[benjamming]

Doug,

What were the failure mode(s) for the renewable lubes you reference?

 

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Quote:
RLI is for people who want to try something exotic, buy 100% (or near enough) american, want to use something that you can pour out on the ground and it'll biodegrade in our lifetime, etc.
The PAO, environmentally unfriendly additives, and the toxins put in it from combustion make pouring it into the ground not a good idea.


Sorry, I was being a tad bit facetious. It's a more environmentally friendly oil than many other types, and I was trying to signify that some people might find that attractive.

 

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I've read a lot about the oil, and honestly I'm not impressed, especially with the price tag. Sorry.


Just out of curiosity, why?

I don't consder it a value oil by any means, but I've also seen it consistently hold up in some of the industries harshest applications. I've seen UOAs with heavy fuel dilution in an engine known for shearing, and it'll hold it's viscosity pretty well for many thousands of miles.

It doesn't have a TBN like an AMSOIL product, so I'm not saying it's good for 15000 mile drains. But it seems to at least have a certain niche.

Granted, that niche might not be for everyone. But that's the definition of the word niche

Joe

 

[saaber1]

off topic but hey crashbox, that sig line is from an old John Wayne movie right? One of the B grade serial Western he did real early in his career?

 

[Crashbox]

Originally Posted By: saaber1
off topic but hey crashbox, that sig line is from an old John Wayne movie right? One of the B grade serial Western he did real early in his career?


That's news to me- no intention of plagiarism on my behalf, I honestly thought it was original.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: JoeFromPA
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I've read a lot about the oil, and honestly I'm not impressed, especially with the price tag. Sorry.


Just out of curiosity, why?

I don't consder it a value oil by any means, but I've also seen it consistently hold up in some of the industries harshest applications. I've seen UOAs with heavy fuel dilution in an engine known for shearing, and it'll hold it's viscosity pretty well for many thousands of miles.

It doesn't have a TBN like an AMSOIL product, so I'm not saying it's good for 15000 mile drains. But it seems to at least have a certain niche.

Granted, that niche might not be for everyone. But that's the definition of the word niche

Joe


I based my "opinion on what I've read here and on other places, then comments like Doug Hillary shared shortly after I posted above help back up my feelings. For the money I think RL, Amsoil, and even Mobil offerings offer better value (I'm not a lover of Mobil either). Again all opinion, the RLI oils are a little too rich for my blood.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
benjamming - I don't quite grasp what you are asking me - please be more specific

With the lubricants I referred to above in a general sense the following were quite common negative factors:

excessive external (not in combustion area) deposits
excessive/undesirable internal deposits
excessive thickening
lack of compatibility (with petroleum based lubricants)
intolerant of small levels of coolant contamination
intolerant of normal OCIs (see above)
and etc.

I hope this is what you meant......

Not all failed but few survive today as suitable and "quality qualified" commercial products for use in internal combustion engines. Some such survivers are gear lubricants and those used in closed loop or non combustion engine environments

 

[benjamming]

Yes but more specific such as x oil provided y & z negative factors that rendered the oil not useable.

What specific tests should be passed to make an oil 'quality qualified'?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
benjamming - I have disclosed the issue of the oroginal GC on here before - many times - searched?

I don't plan to be more specific with the lubricants I was involved with - that is past history, but the list is quite long. And of course many I have no data on and as well, many Blenders of such products no longer exist

Quality qualified? - well the API and ACEA are but two such bodies as you well know. JASO and the various engine Manufacturers - both diesel and petrol - would do just fine!

The engine Manufacturer's Approvals are very important - in the case of the original GC it had API and ACEA (ACEA was formed 95/96) and some engine Approvals - the lubricant "fell over" in real world application - in the service of the likes of you or I. In these cases operational "issues" show up under Warranty and beyond as tracked by the engine's Manufacturer