Alignment (SAI and Included Angle) way off

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PandaBear

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I knew the car (95 Corolla) is pulling all over the place but wanted to find out why. The guys at the tire shop ran an alignment for me and told me that I need a camber kit on the Front Left side. However the Camber seems to be at the border of the spec, but the SAI and Included Angle on that side are way off.

Front Left (actual, before, spec)
Camber ( 0.6, 0.6, -0.9 to 0.6) (barely in spec)
Caster (1.3, 1.3, 0.6 to 2.1)
Toe (0.4, -1.43, -0.05 to 0.15)
SAI (19.5, 19.5, 11.8 to 13.3) (way off)
Included Angle (20.1, 20.1, 10.9 to 13.9) (way off)


Front Right (actual, before, spec)
Camber ( -0.1, 0.0, -0.9 to 0.6)
Caster (1.2, 1.2, 0.6 to 2.1)
Toe (0.07, 0.87, -0.05 to 0.15)
SAI (13.6, 13.5, 11.8 to 13.3) (barely off)
Included Angle (13.5, 13.5, 10.9 to 13.9)


Front (actual, before, spec)
Cross camber (0.7, 0.7, -0.5 to 0.5) (off)
Cross castor (0.1, 0.1, -0.5 to 0.5)
Cross SAI (5.9, 6.0, no spec)
Total Toe (0.12, -0.57, -0.1 to 0.3)



All rear spec in range.



They told me I need a camber kit or else my tire will be worn out quickly, and circled the FL camber that is at the border of the spec as the reason.

However, I noticed that it is still on the edge of the spec so my pull must be from something else, and I noticed SAI and Included Angle that is the part way off. According to MacPherson Strut Troubleshooting Chart at aligncraft.com, SAI and included angle both more than spec is Strut Tower IN at Top and Spindle or Strut Bent. Will a camber kit correct it? or is the tire place just trying to make money on something bordering the spec?

If I want to fix the root cause, not just a patch up with an alignment + camber kit. What would it be?
 
I had to google to figure out that SAI must be the contemporary term for kingpin inclination.

I can't wrap around all that you've got there at the moment. It was so much easier 30 years ago.
 
Rear Left (actual, before, spec)
Camber ( -1.0, -1.0, -1.7 to -0.2)
Toe (0.14, 0.26, 0.05 to 0.25)

Rear Right (actual, before, spec)
Camber ( -1.4, -1.4, -1.7 to 0.2)
Toe (0.15, 0.09, 0.05 to 0.25)

Rear (actual, before, spec)
Cross camber (0.4, 0.4, -0.5 to 0.5)
Total Toe (0.30, 0.34, 0.1 to 0.5)
Thrust Angle (-0.01, 0.09, no spec)


Tire shop note: Camber bolt kit needed on left front to correct pos cam.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I had to google to figure out that SAI must be the contemporary term for kingpin inclination.

I can't wrap around all that you've got there at the moment. It was so much easier 30 years ago.


Yes, "SAI is also referred to as KPI (King Pin Inclination) on trucks and old cars with king pins instead of ball joints."
 
ok the camber bolt kit will fix teh camber, that its not fixing the SAI and IA issue. you have something bent between the top pivot point (strut mount) and bottom pivot point (lower ball joint). find fixed points on the suspension on both sides and measure them against fixed points on the knuckle. im sure something wont match and there is something bent.
 
It's easy. Forget the guys at the "tire shop".
Go find the best frame shop or alignment specialty shop in town and go get a second opinion.
 
Originally Posted By: 94MaxGXE
It's easy. Forget the guys at the "tire shop".
Go find the best frame shop or alignment specialty shop in town and go get a second opinion.



Spend a little more money to get a real tech.
I say bent. How else did it get that far out. When things don't add up it's probably bent somewhere. Spindle, Strut or A arm?????
 
Did the shop shake down the front end before checking the alignment. When did this drifting problem occur?
 
Originally Posted By: RH+G
Did the shop shake down the front end before checking the alignment. When did this drifting problem occur?


It was off for a while already but tolerable until my mom started driving this car and hit a few places over a few weeks. Then the power steering hose burst and I finally get it back to replace the hose, and before I return the car to her, bring it in for an alignment and see what's going on.

After the alignment camber and toe is in spec but the car is now off to the other side. I have to hold the steering to the left (previously to the right) or else the steering will pull to the left.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: RH+G
Did the shop shake down the front end before checking the alignment. When did this drifting problem occur?


It was off for a while already but tolerable until my mom started driving this car and hit a few places over a few weeks. Then the power steering hose burst and I finally get it back to replace the hose, and before I return the car to her, bring it in for an alignment and see what's going on.

After the alignment camber and toe is in spec but the car is now off to the other side. I have to hold the steering to the left (previously to the right) or else the steering will pull to the left.


So u hold the steering toward the left which means the car is pulling toward the right? U got the camber fixed and the alignment done>
 
That positive camber is making your car squirrely too, that means your front tires are closer together at the pavement than they are at the fenders. Sometimes you can unbolt the strut-to-knuckle bolts and find a little adjustment room there without going to wacky cammed bolts.

I think most corollas have bolts holding the lower ball joint to control arm and there may be adjusting room here too.
 
Quote:
It was off for a while already but tolerable until my mom started driving this car and hit a few places over a few weeks. Then the power steering hose burst


Oh my..........

PandaBear, you have more then alignment problems. Something is seriously bent, or maybe even broke. Most likely it's a bent strut, but it could be anything. a Camber kit will not fix it, and probably will make something else worse.

Find a good alignment shop and find out what is really wrong with it.

Very likely It will be expensive.

Good luck friend..
 
So, I'm sure something is bent, but am not trained to visually see what is bent (other than comparing between left and right), I guess I will have to learn about it now.

The struts were replaced at around 130k or 140k, and the car now has about 180k on it. It is KYB GR2 and supposely lifetime warranty, but I doubt it will cover bending due to impact.

Control arm, tie rod end link, ball joints, axles, knuckles, hub/bearing assembly, and strut mounts are all original. There is no sway bar.

What is going to be the problem if we don't fix the SAI and Included angles other than the car pulling to one side? From what I know if camber and toe are ok the tires should point forward and stay on the road evenly, wouldn't they?

If the job is big, I might as well replace all the suspension parts myself. Wanted to do bushing (part of control arm), ball joints, strut mounts, axles, and tie rod end links for a long time already to get the new car feel, but don't want to waste money.
 
Might see if the factory service manual has body measurements from, say, lower ball joint zerks to the big bolt heads on the firewall that attach to the subframe, distance between ball joints, etc. If your Mom slid into a curb that would push the lower parts of the wheels closer together like your alignment measurements indicate.
 
Who knows what parts are loose of flexing? Stock rubber mounts on an old car are going to be mushy and indistinct.
Add this to any probable bent parts, and you have a car that is not stable, even though the STATIC alignment is OK.
But get that L camber set to what the right is. The toe will have to be reset, afterwards.
Sometimes it is better to file, grind, or use the side of a drill to enlarge the upper strut mount hole [to the knuckle]. You can then use the large stock bolt instead of a skinny 'crash' bolt.

When going straight, the SAI and included angle are not big factors, BTW.
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Who knows what parts are loose of flexing? Stock rubber mounts on an old car are going to be mushy and indistinct.
Add this to any probable bent parts, and you have a car that is not stable, even though the STATIC alignment is OK.
But get that L camber set to what the right is. The toe will have to be reset, afterwards.
Sometimes it is better to file, grind, or use the side of a drill to enlarge the upper strut mount hole [to the knuckle]. You can then use the large stock bolt instead of a skinny 'crash' bolt.

When going straight, the SAI and included angle are not big factors, BTW.


So what is the reason for a constant pull to the right that needs at least 10-15 degree left on the steering wheel to correct? It is there for all speed (slightly higher pull for higher speed like 70mph, and less pull for lower speed like 30mph). Could it be power steering?

The rear alignment printout is mentioned above on the 4th post.
 
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