Alfa Romeo 4C: ACEA C3?

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: phaphaphooey
Everyone, thank you so much for the advice. Sounds like I should stick with ACEA C3. I am going to try to reply to everyone as best I can:

The OCI is a variable one calculated by the car but most people have had the notice pop up around 9,000 miles. No one has driven the car much over that afaik. I have about 1,000 miles on the car and due to its nature is just a weekend/special occasion car for me so it will accrue mileage very slowly.

The 1.7 in the 4C is a different engine than the 1.7 used in the Giulietta. It is a Euro 6 with a number of design tweaks as opposed to the Euro 5 design in the Giulietta. I won't bore everyone here with the details as it is too off topics but it is quite a different engine.

The car is an absolute blast and is very similar in feel to one of the older Exiges with the supercharged Toyota 4 cylinder.

Thanks to everyone for sharing the huge amount of collective knowledge on the forum. Merry Christmas to all.


the giulietta has the same euro 6 engine for over a year now...

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: edyvw


If this is true, that Alfa played with W30 and went back to W40, I would then get C3 5W40.
Zveroboy, C3 and sulphur is opposite. C3 is NOT doing good with sulphur. Sulphur level in gas is influencing TBN retention, diminishing TBN much faster then low sulphur gas. Since C3 are Mid-SAPS or Low-SAPS oils, TBN will be much faster diminished then in A3/B3 oils.
On other hand, high SAPS oils such as A3/B3 also leave more carbon deposits on valves.
So I think solution for OP is Mid-SAPS oil such as Pentosin 5W40 or Valvoline 5W40 MST (MST-Mid-SAPS Technology) and cut OCI in half.


We don't get Pentosin here, so I can't comment on it, but Valvoline SynPower 5W-40 MST is a well respected oil around here. It is mid-SAPS, ACEA C3 and MB 229.51.

I agree with edyvw, if you are worried about TBN depletion with a C3 oil due to sulphur in fuel, just change your oil early and rest easy at night.

Have fun with that Alpha !

 

[Saxon78]

Originally Posted By: edyvw

If this is true, that Alfa played with W30 and went back to W40, I would then get C3 5W40.
Zveroboy, C3 and sulphur is opposite. C3 is NOT doing good with sulphur. Sulphur level in gas is influencing TBN retention, diminishing TBN


You're right. Sorry. I just did'n really thaught it over.

As for the w30 vs w40:

My early 2014 manual (MultiAir) says 0w30
The manuals before and after say 5w40

I suppose they worry for the MultiAir (electro hydraulic) module. And/or HTHS.

 

[supercity]

Originally Posted By: edyvw

C3 is best for diesels since US diesel is ULSD. However, U.S. gas is high in sulphur, so not sure why Alfa is going with C3, unless they are mitigating valve carbon deposits that way.
Since they recommend C3, and gas has high sulphur levels, I would definitely do UOA and see what is TBN retention and what is TAN.


It's much the same in Aussie, LL04/229.51 for diesel but LL01/229.5 for gasoline models. VW do not follow suit and recommend 504/507 for all and for longer intervals too. There is of course no high saps equivalent to select.

Fiat/Alfa seem to recommend C2 5w30 for most diesels and C3 5w40 for most gas cars. They have a whole raft of different C3 5w40s however, almost one for every different engine. They did revise the Fiat spec and respective Selenia oil for the Giulietta but it was from one C3 5w40 to another - Selena K PE to Selenia Sport Power.

 

[chrisri]

I've always wondered why Italians recommend to use C3 oils in countries with fuel that has higher sulphur levels. Technically C3 (and C2) are mid-SAPS oils with max limit or 0.8%. They are widely used in Europe in both petrol and diesel cars for last decade. Phosphorus levels are lower to. (Important for petrol TWC).
They offer similar engine wear protection, and TBN retention with ULS fuel in Europe. In US, no idea.

As others said I would stick with C3 5w40 and 3k OCI while under warranty. After that I would rather use A3 lube like M1 0w40 or Castrol 0w40.
Merry Christmas!

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: phaphaphooey
Everyone, thank you so much for the advice. Sounds like I should stick with ACEA C3. I am going to try to reply to everyone as best I can:

The OCI is a variable one calculated by the car but most people have had the notice pop up around 9,000 miles. No one has driven the car much over that afaik. I have about 1,000 miles on the car and due to its nature is just a weekend/special occasion car for me so it will accrue mileage very slowly.

The 1.7 in the 4C is a different engine than the 1.7 used in the Giulietta. It is a Euro 6 with a number of design tweaks as opposed to the Euro 5 design in the Giulietta. I won't bore everyone here with the details as it is too off topics but it is quite a different engine.

The car is an absolute blast and is very similar in feel to one of the older Exiges with the supercharged Toyota 4 cylinder.

Thanks to everyone for sharing the huge amount of collective knowledge on the forum. Merry Christmas to all.


the giulietta has the same euro 6 engine for over a year now...


All alloy now, new engine altogether.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
I've always wondered why Italians recommend to use C3 oils in countries with fuel that has higher sulphur levels. Technically C3 (and C2) are mid-SAPS oils with max limit or 0.8%. They are widely used in Europe in both petrol and diesel cars for last decade. Phosphorus levels are lower to. (Important for petrol TWC).
They offer similar engine wear protection, and TBN retention with ULS fuel in Europe. In US, no idea.

As others said I would stick with C3 5w40 and 3k OCI while under warranty. After that I would rather use A3 lube like M1 0w40 or Castrol 0w40.
Merry Christmas!

I think 3K OCI might be overkill. I think he should do first OCI at 3K, do UOA, and see from there.
Not sure in which state he is, but CA has low sulphur levels, so in CA C3 might not be an issue.

 

[SR5]

So it's OK to use C3 in a 4C in CA.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: SR5
So it's OK to use C3 in a 4C in CA.

It should. I would still do UOA and shorten OCI.

 

[phaphaphooey]

I am definitely going to shorten OCIs on the car and am going to do a change soon to rid the car of any break in remnants that are floating around in the oiling system. I live in the eastern USA and believe we don't have the low sulfur petrol as on the west coast. Part of me wants to go ahead and shift to an A3 oil due to the sulfur content of the local fuel. I have already thumbed my noise at the warranty anyway with the flash tune but I do have the stock ECU lying around that I can switch back into the car should I take it in for servicing.

chrisri: spot on. Different engine blocks, different cylinder heads, different combustion chambers, different HPFP, different injectors, different oil cooler, etc.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: phaphaphooey


chrisri: spot on. Different engine blocks, different cylinder heads, different combustion chambers, different HPFP, different injectors, different oil cooler, etc.



I'm sorry, that's the old engine in the G you're comparing with. Ever since the Giulietta QV received the TCT transmission they also received the 4C engine block. There's going to be differences because of the forward/aft location of the engine, but these are small differences. Power output is the same aswell. HPFP, injectors etc change everytime the euro spec changes, oil cooler is due to location of the engine.

That engine has a 22k oci in europe (yes, with OLM aswell) so the OCI has already been reduced for your market/application. The european engines require NOACK under 10%, what does the Chrysler spec say? That might be part of the cause for the OCI reduction.

That being said, the previous version with the steel engine block had issues with the turbo grenading itself but haven't heard about the new ones having issues yet.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: phaphaphooey
I am definitely going to shorten OCIs on the car and am going to do a change soon to rid the car of any break in remnants that are floating around in the oiling system. I live in the eastern USA and believe we don't have the low sulfur petrol as on the west coast. Part of me wants to go ahead and shift to an A3 oil due to the sulfur content of the local fuel. I have already thumbed my noise at the warranty anyway with the flash tune but I do have the stock ECU lying around that I can switch back into the car should I take it in for servicing.

chrisri: spot on. Different engine blocks, different cylinder heads, different combustion chambers, different HPFP, different injectors, different oil cooler, etc.

Then I would go with Mid-SAPS C3 like Pentosin 5W40, Valvoline 5W40 MST, Motul X-Clean 5W40, you can find these oils on Amazon.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: phaphaphooey


chrisri: spot on. Different engine blocks, different cylinder heads, different combustion chambers, different HPFP, different injectors, different oil cooler, etc.



I'm sorry, that's the old engine in the G you're comparing with. Ever since the Giulietta QV received the TCT transmission they also received the 4C engine block. There's going to be differences because of the forward/aft location of the engine, but these are small differences. Power output is the same aswell. HPFP, injectors etc change everytime the euro spec changes, oil cooler is due to location of the engine.

That engine has a 22k oci in europe (yes, with OLM aswell) so the OCI has already been reduced for your market/application. The european engines require NOACK under 10%, what does the Chrysler spec say? That might be part of the cause for the OCI reduction.

That being said, the previous version with the steel engine block had issues with the turbo grenading itself but haven't heard about the new ones having issues yet.


Jetronic you are right. Current version of 1750 is the same as 4C unit. My comment was about older, iron block engine. Both engines are Family B, Pratola Serra modular.

22k oci seems excessive to me for a turbo petrol engine, and I'm not to confident when it comes to FIAT service intervals recommendations. Just remember TS's 120k cambelt debacle.

OP, just remember to be on top with other fluids and maintenance in general. Great car you have there and a future classic.

 

[Kamele0N]

Where did they find 22k ?

Aint OCIs here on "full" numbers like 20k...30k...50k...

 

[Jetronic]

miles vs km....

it's 35000 km interval, or 22k miles

 

[SR5]

So on C3 it's 22k mi in Europe and about 9k mi in North America (NA), that sounds reasonable. I would just change every 5k mi with a good C3 and be done with it.

Yes you should be able to go longer on A3/B4 and I too don't mind thumbing my nose at warranty, but if you are not driving the cars lots (as a DD) I don't see the point in this case.

Don't forget many non-Euro ILSAC synthetic oils are used all the time in NA, and these oils would be roughly half way between a midSAPS C3 and a full-SAPS A3/B4 and lots of people do 10k mi on the same fuel as you.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: SR5
So on C3 it's 22k mi in Europe and about 9k mi in North America (NA), that sounds reasonable. I would just change every 5k mi with a good C3 and be done with it.

Yes you should be able to go longer on A3/B4 and I too don't mind thumbing my nose at warranty, but if you are not driving the cars lots (as a DD) I don't see the point in this case.

Don't forget many non-Euro ILSAC synthetic oils are used all the time in NA, and these oils would be roughly half way between a midSAPS C3 and a full-SAPS A3/B4 and lots of people do 10k mi on the same fuel as you.


Many non-Euro oils do not have HTHS min. 3.5, stay in grade requirements etc.
It is not only about SAPS, it is about many other requirements that make Euro oils far more robust then others.
Turbo in that Alfa would cook those oils in no time, especially if it is tuned up.
I always emphasize my friends who want to buy Euro cars: if you are willing to educate yourself on oils buy car. If you think that VW, BMW, MB or Fiat is just another Toyota, do not buy it in the first place.

 

[chrisri]

Edy, I think SR5 was referring to a similar starting TBN in both ILSAC and C3 lubricants, not other properties of these two oils that are vastly different.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Edy, I think SR5 was referring to a similar starting TBN in both ILSAC and C3 lubricants, not other properties of these two oils that are vastly different.


Sorry for any confusion, yes chrisri is correct, I was referring to starting TBN only (the main point of difference between A3 and C3) and saying that I have seen some C3 oils with starting TBN similar to some ILSAC oils.

Yes, there is a BIG difference between ACEA C3 oils and ILSAC GF-5 oils, such as the 3.5 min HTHS for the C3 and the stay-in-grade shear stability test. The C3, A3/B3 & A3/B4 Euro oils are significantly more robust that any ILSAC oil.

The OP should only consider a C3 or A3 oil for his Alfa.

For the record, I have never used an ILSAC oil in my life. I am strictly an A3/B4 type of guy, but happy to consider a C3 for the right application. Maybe one day I'll try one of those light A5/B5 oils ...... but not today.

Australia uses the ACEA standards quite a lot, many regular oils here like Castrol GTX 15W40 are A3/B3. The 15W40 grade is probably the most popular grade in Australia, we put it in everything.

Sorry for any confusion.

 

[chrisri]

To add more confusion A3 oil have a minimum TBN of only 8, compared with a minimum of 6 for C3, C4 oils. Most C3 oils are round 7 in practice. Not much into it.
What gives A3/B4 lube strong add pack/ high TBN is B4 specification (min 10 TBN), opposed to 8 for A3/B3.