Alec Baldwin gun incident

[ZeeOSix]

Which is why more precautions should be followed ANY time a functional firearm is used...blanks or no blanks. This entire situation is saturated with fail. How do we know? Because somebody died.

There are lots of rules and regulations already in place that are to be followed. A lot of them came after the Brandon Lee accident. If people don't follow the rules and procedures then it doesn't matter how good the rules and procedures are written. The failure is people didn't follow those rules and procedures.

No Longer Available

www.kmbc.com

 

[Hall]

It makes me wonder why Hollywood is using blanks at all? They don't have the technology to make a sound effect, or a muzzle flash? If they don't want the responsibility of gun safety protocols, then they need to take ALL of the chance of danger out of the equation.

I was thinking the same thing. Besides the question of why there was live ammo anywhere near the set (which seems to have been explained now), why aren't they using visual effects ? I guess $$$ is one (big) factor.

Astute movie goers can see the difference, so Hollywood often uses real.

because astute movie goers will see the blanks in the revolver.

Just remind them that it's make believe, it's a movie, it's not real....

 

[ZeeOSix]

Gun safety is the responsibility of the person who is handling the weapon. No one else. If you hand me a weapon, and tell me, "it's unloaded", "cold", "loaded with blanks", or whatever, the first thing I'm going to do is check it myself. Not because I don't think you know what you're doing. But rather because I do once I pick it up.

It's not always going to work that way on movie sets, it's already been said why. That's why there is suppose to be a crew of firearm experts in charge. If you were that guy and an actor discounted your expertise and didn't trust anything you did what would you say to them?

 

[CharlesInCharge]

It's not always going to work that way on movie sets, it's already been said why. That's why there is suppose to be a crew of firearm experts in charge. If you were that guy and an actor discounted your expertise and didn't trust anything you did what would you say to them?

I have qualifications sufficient to be considered a "firearms expert," and could fill the role as such on a movie set. If I handed a gun to an actor I would insist he or she personally inspect it so we both confirm it is loaded only with blanks or it is unloaded and safe. I would not take the job otherwise. If I were the actor, I would demand this occur. If I were the producer, I would demand this occur. This would make the gun totally safe for its intended use, and absolve both of us in the event of a mis-hap because our affidavits would state our safety measures.

Anything less, IMHO, by both the actor and the expert, is negligence.

This also means, that once the "expert" hands it off, he or she no longer has any control over it. A nefarious person or prankster could load it at that time. I would want to ensure that we both saw it was in the correct safety state when I last touched it.

 

[ZeeOSix]

More live rounds of ammo found on set. Someone broke the rules in a major way. If people on this set followed the rules already in place this would never have happened. Granted, it was multiple mistakes on top of each other, which is how most accidents happen.

Sheriff: Lead bullet fatally struck 'Rust' cinematographer; 500 rounds of ammo recovered on set

Santa Fe County sheriff says it was a lead bullet that fatally struck cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on the set of the film 'Rust.'

www.latimes.com

 

[Quattro Pete]

Then a bunch of anti-gunners seem to bring live ammo,

Fact or speculation?

 

[sk_pete]

It's not always going to work that way on movie sets, it's already been said why. That's why there is suppose to be a crew of firearm experts in charge.

1000%
and a women actors may not be familiar with guns anyway.
in europe, there is always a special firearm guy on set (or has a deputy), being responsible for everything related.

it needs to be understood, actors are just ordinary "dumb" people, not a weapon geeks.
btw, why are not used airsoft guns instead? todays replicas are so real.

 

[totegoat]

Accidents happen but really stupid mistakes often kill.

 

[GoldDot40]

There are lots of rules and regulations already in place that are to be followed. A lot of them came after the Brsndon Lee accident. If people don't follow the rules and procedures then it doesn't matter how good the rules and procedures are written. The failure is people didn't follow those rules and procedures.

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That's my point. But all the rules and regulations in the world mean squat if they aren't followed. This is also my argument when it comes to gun laws. We don't need MORE laws...we need to enforce the ones on the books.

 

[ZeeOSix]

That's my point. But all the rules and regulations in the world mean squat if they aren't followed. This is also my argument when it comes to gun laws. We don't need MORE laws...we need to enforce the ones on the books.

That's what I'm saying too. There are already stringent rules in place. Rules mean absolutely NOTHING if they are not followed.

It's obvious that the people responsible for firearm safety on this movie were not doing their job correctly. Who's fault is that?

Safety Tips for Use of Firearms · Actors' Equity Association

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/etis20.pdf

 

[CharlesInCharge]

1000%
and a women actors may not be familiar with guns anyway.
in europe, there is always a special firearm guy on set (or has a deputy), being responsible for everything related.

it needs to be understood, actors are just ordinary "dumb" people, not a weapon geeks.
btw, why are not used airsoft guns instead, todays replicas are so real.

One need not be a "weapons geek" to be trained in a basic function of his/her job in handling guns.
If your job duties include, "pointing guns at people in a movie" you darn well better believe it is YOUR responsibility personally to ensure the guns are safe. Period. Yes, others are also to blame. But the final blame is with the handler.

As I mentioned, a 10 year old of average intelligence can be shown how to inspect a gun for either an empty chamber, or be shown the difference between a blank and a real live round. If an "actor" is going to be playing with guns on a set, it's fundamental he/she would be shown this and expected to have some accountability.

I cannot imagine another profession where one would not be expected to learn a simple life saving task. This is not a big ask, IMO. Open the cylinder, and look. Open the gates, and spin the cylinder, remove and replace each round to make sure it's a blank.

If anyone can read and understand this, you already know more than apparently many people on the set of Rust, including Baldwin.

Bullets have 4 components. Bullet, powder, primer, and the casing. To make a blank, there is no bullet, and the casing is crimped, and the powder charge usually reduced. This adds to realism, recoil (often needed to operate semi-automatics and automatics), noise, flash, etc. To make realistic looking ammo, there is no powder and the casing is generally drilled or pinched in a way to identify them. Or ammo can have the bullet and case to look real but no powder and no primer.

Again, a 10 year old level of understanding, and totally fundamental for anyone touching a gun, including actors, where guns and blanks are used. In my military career we used blanks often for training. Nobody was allowed to bring or handle ANY live ammunition in the training or prep areas, and our guns were fitted with blank adaptor devices on the ends of our guns as a extra precaution.

For visual aid, here's what you'd look for.
Empty: Totally safe. This takes 5 seconds.
Double Action, empty

Single Action, apparently being used on the Rust set: No more than a minute with slightly different but same principle for a single action revolver. This chamber is empty, but one must spin to check all chambers.

Single action - oh what do we have here. This is a bullet. Better take it out and see if it's a dummy or live round. Whew, glad I checked. Let's inspect the other chambers! Hold on while I take 1 minute to do this basic safety check.

Difference between real ammo and blanks is obvious to inspect. Examples:

Live

Dummy, can be crimped with or without powder, or removed powder and removed primer with a bullet remaining. Examples.

 

[Dave P.]

Pointed is different than fired.
I would agree that it's probably not practical to expect every actor to chamber check every firearm

I own a couple of revolvers and would be perfectly comfortable checking a revolver. But, some weapons used in TV and film are so much more sophisticated than a basic revolver, I don't think we can expect every actor or actress to have the knowledge of how to chamber check it. That is and should be the job of the armorer I would think.

 

[Silver]

Is this going to delay the release of Idiocracy II?

 

[CharlesInCharge]

I have thought of a good analogy here.

Imagine a situation where you are going to dive into an electrical repair or you hire someone to do it. Regardless this is dangerous. You don't have to be a "electrical geek" or a engineer to know that the basic fundamental rule is to turn off the circuit breaker before diving into wiring, cutting wires, etc.
It's your home, your insurance, you or someone you care about or hired is about to start cutting wires.

Do you trust "someone else turned off the circuit breaker?" Or, do you walk out to the garage and double check to ensure the breaker is in fact OFF? Better yet, two people simultaneously ensure it is off, agree it is off, and then you close the breaker box and don't let anyone near it. In the service industry, they have "lock out" tags for dangerous electronical devices.

Failing to do this seems to me liability if the wires are cut into and zap, someone dies b/c nobody confirmed the breaker was off.

 

[ZeeOSix]

As far as I am concerned, Baldwin owns 100% of this.

Not really. Many more people involved made this all occur by not following all the rules in place, so it can't be 100% on him. The person or people who brought the live ammo on set and the Armorer (who is ultimately suppose to be in charge) are more responsible.

 

[02SE]

Alec Baldwin is a hypocritical moron, who is ultimately responsible for negligently killing a woman.

I could post some of his famous (infamous) quotes he has uttered after other shooting incidents not involving him, but then I'd have stooped to his level.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

I own a couple of revolvers and would be perfectly comfortable checking a revolver. But, some weapons used in TV and film are so much more sophisticated than a basic revolver, I don't think we can expect every actor or actress to have the knowledge of how to chamber check it. That is and should be the job of the armorer I would think.

I'm familiar with and have probably used nearly every firearm platform or derivative thereof made in the last 100+ years. There's nothing so complex, nor any financial excuse, that a person - who makes his/her living off of handling said guns in a obscenely lucrative industry - could not and should not be expected to be proficient with being able to open a chamber and ensure it is safe or to know the difference between a live bullet and a fake one. If one cannot muster that ability, then s/he is in the wrong profession. This is not a big ask. It's a 10 minute instruction. I cannot think of a difficult weapon to learn how to remove the feeding device (magazine if applicable), and open a chamber to empty or inspect it. This is a task akin to changing a light bulb on difficulty level.

Baldwin is 63 years old, and been in many action films. No excuse IMO on his individual part as the director and actor handling and shooting a 200 year old gun design. Open cylinder gate, spin it, inspect all 6 bullets. Skill level 1, time commitment 1 minute.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The bolded…..This, this, and more this. It’s the end users responsibility, period. I fail to understand what’s so hard about that. Just like the pilot of an aircraft, who’s responsible in the end for ensuring the airworthiness of his craft, hence why we have a walk around in the checklist.
in this instance, mr “I hate guns“ needs to burn just like any one of us here would if we accidentally shot someone after being told “it’s unloaded”. Simple as that.

billt460 nailed it as well.

You think the pilots are repsonible for that jet that went down in the ocean because the tail jackscrew locked up because mechanics failed to do the maintenance correctly?

 

[Astro14]

I have thought of a good analogy here.

Imagine a situation where you are going to dive into an electrical repair or you hire someone to do it. Regardless this is dangerous. You don't have to be a "electrical geek" or a engineer to know that the basic fundamental rule is to turn off the circuit breaker before diving into wiring, cutting wires, etc.
It's your home, your insurance, you or someone you care about or hired is about to start cutting wires.

Do you trust "someone else turned off the circuit breaker?" Or, do you walk out to the garage and double check to ensure the breaker is in fact OFF? Better yet, two people simultaneously ensure it is off, agree it is off, and then you close the breaker box and don't let anyone near it. In the service industry, they have "lock out" tags for dangerous electronical devices.

Failing to do this seems to me liability if the wires are cut into and zap, someone dies b/c nobody confirmed the breaker was off.

Everything you say makes sense.

But it is predicated on actors knowing something beyond their craft.

Armorers are 100% responsible for set safety with firearms. Actors aren’t expected to know it, any more than they know electrical, or other equipment safety.

Some do understand equipment safety, just like some do their own stunts, but the preponderance are simply ignorant because the protocols and procedures are so restrictive that the actors don’t have to have a working knowledge.

Keanu Reeves, for example, is a very capable shooter. He is dedicated to his craft and learned to compete in three gun in order to be more credible in the John Wick movies series.

Not many Hollywood types hold themselves to that standard.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I just don't understand the whole "gun rules don't apply to movie sets" thing. Sounds more like a defense of Baldwin than anything.

The 4 gun rules absolutely apply EVERYWHERE.

Yes, REAL guns get pointed at REAL people on movie sets. The rules STILL apply. Why wouldn't they?

The gun rules on movie sets are just as stringent as any gun rules. If people don't follow rules then rules mean absolutely nothing.