Airline Fleet/Management in a crisis

WN also pulled out of EWR last summer, just like they pulled back in SFO, effectively leaving UAL hubs a year ago.

So, yes adding traffic to ORD is going back into UAL hubs, but only after previously leaving when it didn’t work out.

So, while the press makes a big deal of WN going after UAL hubs, they’ve ignored the dozens of point to point flights that UAL added to MCO last month, going directly after WN traffic.

Further, the press has ignored the elimination of change fees at UAL, another move intended to go after the WN customer base.

UAL intends to compete aggressively, to grow aggressively, that’s why they kept every single hull, and every pilot, where other airlines have permanently retired entire fleets of aircraft and furloughed pilots, and I think WN would be better served to go after market share and hubs left open by airlines that have permanently reduced their fleet and personnel. AA, DL, for example.

If you want to survive as a predator, you don’t pick the strongest wildebeest in the herd, you go after the weak one at the back of the pack....
 
United and Delta seem to be the big dogs. They have the huge maintenance facilities and they do work on other airlines planes.
 
WN also pulled out of EWR last summer, just like they pulled back in SFO, effectively leaving UAL hubs a year ago.

So, yes adding traffic to ORD is going back into UAL hubs, but only after previously leaving when it didn’t work out.

So, while the press makes a big deal of WN going after UAL hubs, they’ve ignored the dozens of point to point flights that UAL added to MCO last month, going directly after WN traffic.

Further, the press has ignored the elimination of change fees at UAL, another move intended to go after the WN customer base.

UAL intends to compete aggressively, to grow aggressively, that’s why they kept every single hull, and every pilot, where other airlines have permanently retired entire fleets of aircraft and furloughed pilots, and I think WN would be better served to go after market share and hubs left open by airlines that have permanently reduced their fleet and personnel. AA, DL, for example.

If you want to survive as a predator, you don’t pick the strongest wildebeest in the herd, you go after the weak one at the back of the pack....
How? I mean I understand your emotional attachment to UAL, but how are AA or DL back of the pack? Also, WN is not a company that makes randomized decisions just like that.
As for customers and UAL going after WN customers, let me say I am big skeptic.
 
How are they weaker?

First, the liquidity and cash burn equation. AA has a lot less liquidity than UAL or DAL. On a daily basis their cash burn is higher. That puts AA on a different “glideslope” than UA or DAL. They hit the ground sooner. A lot sooner. WN is strongest when examining liquidity and cash burn. UAL and DAL are similar, though DAL just took $4 billion in charges related to early retirements and fleet reductions. So, WN is strongest. UAL next, with DAL close. AA in a different category.

Next, fleet and structural changes. Both AA and DAL have made drastic (30%), irreversible fleet size reductions in response to the drop in air travel. They have made the same size reductions in pilot staffing.

It takes years to furlough pilots, and years to bring them back. That fact is an inescapable function of training when you have more than one aircraft type. It takes about two months to train a pilot for a seat/type. When you furlough, the junior pilots are narrowbody FO (this is an oversimplification, but close enough), so, DAL has to retrain an entire set of replacement narrowbody FO, bumped down from widebody FO. and they have to train replacement widebody FO, who were bumped down from narrowbody CA. and then, they need to train replacement narrowbody CA. So, one furlough equals about four training events, and if it were only one furloughed pilot, that could be done in two months with the training run concurrently. But when you have thousands of furloughs, you are constrained by training center throughput. It takes years to reshuffle the airline’s pilots into their new seats.

Years.

And it takes years to reverse the process. DAL and AA are starting this years-long process, which results in huge training costs, potential flight cancellation (not enough pilots of the right type to operate that type of aircraft on that day), and it precludes any agility in responding to market changes, once the downward avalanche of furlough and retraining begins.

Notably, WN and UAL are not starting down that path.

When looking at the resultant fleet size and disposition for DAL and AA, DAL is taking their fleet from over 770 airplanes to just under 500, and they’re parking many international widebody aircraft, to be left with about half the wide bodies they had prior to the pandemic. They’ve deferred deliveries on the new A350, and permanently retired 777, and 767 aircraft. DAL claims they’re primarily a business-travel airline, but their international fleet has been dramatically reduced, is about 1/4 the size of UAL, and they’ve cut international destinations because they simply can’t fly there any more. They don’t have the jets, and they don’t have the crews.

DAL will have to rely on their codeshare partners for any revenue recovery in the international market. They no longer have the organic ability to serve international business travelers the way that they used to. That’s weakness. A big weakness if your plan is business travel.

AA is making similar, permanent cuts in fleet size, though the wide bodies are being cut proportionally, not dramatically as they are at DAL.

Reducing aircraft types in your fleet saves money in the long run, it reduces spare parts inventory and training infrastructure, and it allows you to have fewer reserve crews because they’re not spread across multiple platforms, they’re consolidated on fewer aircraft types. That’s all good.

But those savings are all in the future. The costs of retraining and furlough are here now.

But here’s the critical point: the airlines don’t have a debt problem. They have a revenue problem. No travel = no $$ coming in. The big 4 were in good financial shape pre-pandemic. Now, they have no revenue.

And both DAL and AA just cut off their own ability to generate revenue. They cut their high yield international fleets and routes. They can’t serve as many profitable routes and the high yield customers with their reduced fleets. That makes their future earnings weak, and makes them the weaker airlines going forward.

WN goes where they think they can make money. They’ve gone into hubs before, and then pulled out. Hardly random decisions, but they’re not always successful when they try new markets, like EWR.

If you think WN has a better strategy, then look at what WN is doing: keeping all their crews, keeping all their planes. Of their big competitors, only UAL is doing that. DAL and AA are shrinking. When AA and DAL shrank post 9-11, WN took market share from them. Market share what was gained back through merger, not competition.

History is repeating itself.
 
@Astro14 ,

Thanks for that detailed analysis. There is a lot more to the story than most of us will ever know.

A friend has a son who is flying the Embraer for UAL. He is still flying and very thankful.

One question on furloughs, the pilots that do get furloughed, don’t they have to keep up their flying hours to keep their licenses? If so, is that on their dime?
 
Furlough is a lay off with full re-employment rights. The company that furloughs must hire back all of the furloughed employees before it can hire a new employee of that type. It’s a continuation of the employment contract.

For example, UAL has a clause in the contract about furloughs. If UAL furloughs a pilot, that pilot must be offered a job before the company can hire a new pilot. If the furloughed pilot is locked into a contract (or serving in the military) with a different employer, they have up to ten years to come back after they are offered their old job back - an over simplified explanation of the recall process, but you get the idea.

If a furloughed pilot is seeking another flying job while on furlough, then yes, they must keep current in order to get hired. Nobody hires non-current pilots in general and certainly not right now...

That may require spending their own $$. There are very, very few job openings in the current climate.

If they are working in some different capacity, and plan to return to their company, then currency is not required as that company will train them when they come back.
 
Furlough is a lay off with full re-employment rights. The company that furloughs must hire back all of the furloughed employees before it can hire a new employee of that type. It’s a continuation of the employment contract.

For example, UAL has a clause in the contract about furloughs. If UAL furloughs a pilot, that pilot must be offered a job before the company can hire a new pilot. If the furloughed pilot is locked into a contract (or serving in the military) with a different employer, they have up to ten years to come back after they are offered their old job back - an over simplified explanation of the recall process, but you get the idea.

If a furloughed pilot is seeking another flying job while on furlough, then yes, they must keep current in order to get hired. Nobody hires non-current pilots in general and certainly not right now...

That may require spending their own $$. There are very, very few job openings in the current climate.

If they are working in some different capacity, and plan to return to their company, then currency is not required as that company will train them when they come back.


So does the pilot still get hours through the company? My understanding was that pilots have to have so many hours flying within a certain time period to stay current otherwise their license or certification lapses. Or, does the furlough accept that and make up for it when the pilot returns to the job?
 
Basically, a furloughed pilot who wants another job needs to keep their hours up. If they let their currency lapse, they’re not marketable.

A furloughed pilot who goes back to that parent company can accept the lapse and the company will re-establish currency upon their return.

Companies spend basically zero dollars on furloughed employees.

UAL pilots on furlough get their medical care paid for by fellow UAL pilots via the union, not the company.

In general, an airline won’t spend the big $$ to keep furloughed pilots current*. There is no need from a company perspective. The lapse is irrelevant to the airline because the training syllabus will re-establish their currency upon their return.


*Various negotiated amendments to contracts change that in this pandemic. Some companies are offering a bit of pay if the pilot remains available for recall and agrees to stay current. Not many takers on that deal, however, as it precludes employment elsewhere. You can’t, in good conscience, or in compliance with typical pilot contracts, accept a job, knowing you might have to go back to a previous job on short notice.
 
OK, I see your argument but that is just different philosophy. It is a bet. UAL is betting that market will have V shape recovery. From DAL perspective they obviously think differently. I am not sure that puts them at the back of the pack, I think time will tell who was right. Back in March I said here this will last 3-5 years, and I think I was optimistic back then. I am not going into reasons why I am thinking that way as that is not topic, but IMO those who are taking more conservative approach to the crisis might be the one that will fare better. If people think that full blown recovery will happen before 2028 (and some economists are saying 2030) at best, well, I have a bridge to nowhere to sell them. This winter will be absolutely brutal. Numbers are already spiking like crazy, Europe is tightening grip, which means grip is tightening on economies. Some countries are reporting 30-40% positivity rates. And people are done with virus, while virus is not done with people.
So DAL is cutting international fleet. How much international travel will be in near future? In mid-term things will get better, but there are a lot of variables that could influence that. Are we going to have successful vaccine? What % of population will get vaccinated? In best case scenario wide availability of vaccine will not happen before beginning of 2022, and that is in the developed countries. All this recovery will depend of course on recovery elsewhere.
Can UAL sustain that for one more year? Can WN sustain that for one more year? My neighbor is WN pilot, and he is saying he flies 20-30% load at best. So, where is critical point before money runs out? Or all companies bet that government will eventually send money?
As for AA, I agree. AA had issues prior to crisis and IMO, government suppose to ban that kind of behavior to any business entity that wants government help. You are saying all 4 were in good shape. I am not so sure about AA, and they only have themselves to blame, no one else.
So keeping same or similar number of planes means only one: bet that recovery is going to be fast and strong. DAL thinks that will not happen that way. Time will tell. I would really like that things pan out the way UAL thinks and suddenly there is enough traffic like before to put to use all those planes.
 
I think we agree that AA is in the worst shape. If I were looking to expand, AA's territory would be a safer bet. But UAL's hubs (as previously discussed) have the most potential gain in revenue.

UAL's CEO is making a bold bet, one by which the company's future, and mine, will be profoundly influenced.

Every other major international airline is cutting staff and fleet.

UAL is not.

Fascinatingly, WN is not, either.
 
Which airline is WA? Southwest?

Astro and other BITOG folks that are in aviation, I wash you the best. I work in general aviation and hope aviation as a whole gets better soon.
 
Just a minor point but Southwest is WN. WA was the old Western Airlines. I flew on them a number of times back in the day. Great service. Being in uniform got me free drinks.

“The Only Way to Fly.”
 
Thank you! I didn't think of looking at IATA codes.

I used to work for a nice lady who had been the most senior flight attendant at Western Airlines at the time. She went to Delta after their merger and was still pretty happy. I remember she switched her cars license to "I'm Delta" after the merger or takeover. This would have been the early 1980's, I think? I really liked starting my career there.
 
Thank you! I didn't think of looking at IATA codes.

I used to work for a nice lady who had been the most senior flight attendant at Western Airlines at the time. She went to Delta after their merger and was still pretty happy. I remember she switched her cars license to "I'm Delta" after the merger or takeover. This would have been the early 1980's, I think? I really liked starting my career there.


That sounds about right. That was still a time when air travel was in its golden age so to speak. I think Western must have had a contract with the government because all my flights were with them when possible. There were usually other service members on board too.
 
To further muddle the furlough deal, some pilots are not subject to recall as they have no airline to go back to. My wife was an FO with Express Jet, a UAL regional carrier prior to the pandemic. They are now all unemployed as the airline folded after UAL selected another regional as the sole EMB-145 operator. Fun times for sure...
 
To further muddle the furlough deal, some pilots are not subject to recall as they have no airline to go back to. My wife was an FO with Express Jet, a UAL regional carrier prior to the pandemic. They are now all unemployed as the airline folded after UAL selected another regional as the sole EMB-145 operator. Fun times for sure...

I am very sorry to hear of her situation. These are, indeed, challenging times.

I hope that when I explain things in simple terms, that my straight/factual approach doesn’t come across as uncaring. I recognize that people are being deeply affected by this.

I’m affected, too, though not to her degree. I was deeply affected in previous downturns and furloughs.

It’s not an easy or predictable industry, and though I love flying airplanes, I am glad that none of my children have chosen to do the same. My son in law, however, has just recently gotten out of the Marine Corps as an F/A-18 pilot. His hopes of getting a flying job have been crushed by this situation, and he is having to look for a different career path now.
 
To further muddle the furlough deal, some pilots are not subject to recall as they have no airline to go back to. My wife was an FO with Express Jet, a UAL regional carrier prior to the pandemic. They are now all unemployed as the airline folded after UAL selected another regional as the sole EMB-145 operator. Fun times for sure...
What does she plan on doing ?
A career change or stay in aviation ?

I do agree with the government helping the airlines.... but with strings attached.

.
 
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