moe in wichita ks i know very little about automotive oils , and even less about turbine oil. however in 1964 i got to see a chrysler turbine car in person. the guy working for chrysler had to keep saying " there is NO list for turbine cars". some may not know it but the 1966 dodge charger was to have a turbine engine, but the turbine engine just could not match a piston engine. but i bought a new 1966 charger any way. it sure was a chick magnet. my question is what kind of bearings does a turbine/jet engine have?
Aircraft oils on cars
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Kestas
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Roller bearings. I'm about to receive some failed aircraft turbine engine bearings to analyze.
They have ball bearings also.
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: kd5byb
II'm not certain, but I'd bet that the 23699 doesn't contain any EP additives nor any detergents.
3 to 5% of P is more than sufficient as EP additive. As a 20-30% mix with PCMO you would have more than adequate detergents depending on pan capacity. Also, all current turbine oils are Group V and is the best for cleaning your engine.
Actually 23699 oils contain 2-3% of TCP, which translates to about 0.2-0.3% of P. This is an anti-wear additive but not generally considered EP.
23699 oils are a 0W-10 grade and contain no detergents. They are great for the very high and low temperatures encountered in jet engines, but are not suitable for car engines. You might get away with adding a quart for a short cleaning run, but you would be diluting other critical additives and I would be somewhat concerned about the seals. I've had lots of access to these oils and never considered adding any to my car.
Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: kd5byb
II'm not certain, but I'd bet that the 23699 doesn't contain any EP additives nor any detergents.
3 to 5% of P is more than sufficient as EP additive. As a 20-30% mix with PCMO you would have more than adequate detergents depending on pan capacity. Also, all current turbine oils are Group V and is the best for cleaning your engine.
Actually 23699 oils contain 2-3% of TCP, which translates to about 0.2-0.3% of P. This is an anti-wear additive but not generally considered EP.
23699 oils are a 0W-10 grade and contain no detergents. They are great for the very high and low temperatures encountered in jet engines, but are not suitable for car engines. You might get away with adding a quart for a short cleaning run, but you would be diluting other critical additives and I would be somewhat concerned about the seals. I've had lots of access to these oils and never considered adding any to my car.
Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
23699 oils are a 0W-10 grade and contain no detergents. They are great for the very high and low temperatures encountered in jet engines, but are not suitable for car engines. You might get away with adding a quart for a short cleaning run, but you would be diluting other critical additives and I would be somewhat concerned about the seals. I've had lots of access to these oils and never considered adding any to my car.
Tom NJ
What other critical additives would I be worry about? If you look at all the oils with the same grade and classification you will see that the additives vary by as much as 50% and it does not seem to hurt any thing. I am currently running the jet oil as a 20% mix with Bardahl 20W50 motorcycle oil (check out the VOA in the other forum). My truck has not leaked in the past 90K on jet oil mix so when do you think it will start leaking due to seal problems?
23699 oils are a 0W-10 grade and contain no detergents. They are great for the very high and low temperatures encountered in jet engines, but are not suitable for car engines. You might get away with adding a quart for a short cleaning run, but you would be diluting other critical additives and I would be somewhat concerned about the seals. I've had lots of access to these oils and never considered adding any to my car.
Tom NJ
What other critical additives would I be worry about? If you look at all the oils with the same grade and classification you will see that the additives vary by as much as 50% and it does not seem to hurt any thing. I am currently running the jet oil as a 20% mix with Bardahl 20W50 motorcycle oil (check out the VOA in the other forum). My truck has not leaked in the past 90K on jet oil mix so when do you think it will start leaking due to seal problems?
what do you feel you gain by running turbine engine oil? It's not cheaper than any of the "best" automotive oils, unless of course your employer is paying for it.
Here are the documented gains:
1. I get the oil for free, about one or two quarts per month.
2. Better fuel economy, about 4% increase average for 6 vehicles.
3. See posts #941842 and #941863 above
1. I get the oil for free, about one or two quarts per month.
2. Better fuel economy, about 4% increase average for 6 vehicles.
3. See posts #941842 and #941863 above
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so basically because it is free?
Basically because you can't read.
See item 2 and 3 of post #1387903.
Jet oil mixed with cheap dino oil is a very good synthetic blend for the money.
See item 2 and 3 of post #1387903.
Jet oil mixed with cheap dino oil is a very good synthetic blend for the money.
Personally I prefer not to dilute down my detergents, dispersants, EP, and rust inhibitors from the levels the oil manufacturer chose in their balanced formulation.
With the exception of BP 2380, 23699 oils are very high in C5-PE esters which are fairly aggressive toward many seals, although a 20% addition may not cause problems depending on the formulation of the motor oil.
If it works for you, fine. For me it's an unnecessary risk.
Tom NJ
With the exception of BP 2380, 23699 oils are very high in C5-PE esters which are fairly aggressive toward many seals, although a 20% addition may not cause problems depending on the formulation of the motor oil.
If it works for you, fine. For me it's an unnecessary risk.
Tom NJ
I read all of your posts, that is why I am asking again. I find your experiment interesting but you choose to ignore any information to the contrary of your opinion. I don't care if you want to run it but I think it is a false economy.
If the turbine oil wasn't free your mix wouldn't be a good value. The price of turbine oil is far more expensive than any automotive oils.
I'm not sure that I'd consider:
Quote:
Jet oil mixed with cheap dino oil is a very good synthetic blend for the money"
when you have an expert telling you:
Quote:
23699 oils are a 0W-10 grade and contain no detergents. They are great for the very high and low temperatures encountered in jet engines, but are not suitable for car engines. You might get away with adding a quart for a short cleaning run, but you would be diluting other critical additives and I would be somewhat concerned about the seals. I've had lots of access to these oils and never considered adding any to my car.
and
Quote:
With the exception of BP 2380, 23699 oils are very high in C5-PE esters which are fairly aggressive toward many seals, although a 20% addition may not cause problems depending on the formulation of the motor oil.
one bad seal will cost you more than you ever saved using cheap/expensive/incorrect oil and a 4% mpg gain. engines last over 200,000 miles on cheap oils changed "sometimes". with the exception that you get the oil for "free" I haven't read anything here that says that your blend is a good idea.
If the turbine oil wasn't free your mix wouldn't be a good value. The price of turbine oil is far more expensive than any automotive oils.
I'm not sure that I'd consider:
Quote:
Jet oil mixed with cheap dino oil is a very good synthetic blend for the money"
when you have an expert telling you:
Quote:
23699 oils are a 0W-10 grade and contain no detergents. They are great for the very high and low temperatures encountered in jet engines, but are not suitable for car engines. You might get away with adding a quart for a short cleaning run, but you would be diluting other critical additives and I would be somewhat concerned about the seals. I've had lots of access to these oils and never considered adding any to my car.
and
Quote:
With the exception of BP 2380, 23699 oils are very high in C5-PE esters which are fairly aggressive toward many seals, although a 20% addition may not cause problems depending on the formulation of the motor oil.
one bad seal will cost you more than you ever saved using cheap/expensive/incorrect oil and a 4% mpg gain. engines last over 200,000 miles on cheap oils changed "sometimes". with the exception that you get the oil for "free" I haven't read anything here that says that your blend is a good idea.
I have to ask, why do jet engine oils not have any detergent?
They don't come in contact with combustion gasses, sludge, etc. Turbine engine oils oil come in contact with roller and ball bearings, gears. One of its main functions is cooling.
Tom, what part of my truck has not leak in the past 90K miles on a 268K miles total don't you understand? What part of average fuel economy increase of 4% across the board don't you understand? I can get jet oil at work by the pallet at a little over $6/qt, a lot cheaper than many synthetics at Autozones or Checkers. What critical additive do you think I will be diluting when the variation in additives between oils of same grade and classification can be up to 50%? There are much more anti wear additive in jet oil than in almost any car oils.
Like I said, you either can't read or are ignoring the facts. I work in the aerospace industries and can say that I do know quite a bit about jet oil and what it can and can not do. I never run the factory recommend oil after the warranties on my vehicles had expired because I know that there are better oils out there. Most of my vehicles have lasted beyond 200K miles using my own blend that are not any where close to the specifications for the vehicles.
BTW, jet oil do come into contact with combustion gases due to engine loosing its tolerances. This is why Mobil Jet Oil 254 is advertised to: "Reduces the formation of carbon and sludge deposits. Maintains engine efficiency and extends engine life. Reduces bulk oil oxidation by 50% and increases deposit control by 50º F. Mobil Jet Oil 254 is completely compatible with all metals used in gas turbine construction, as well as with F Rubber (Viton A), H Rubber (Buna N), and other commonly used seal materials." We use Mobil 254 exclusively in all of our aircraft maintenance and repairs, and I also use it in my special car blend.
Like I said, you either can't read or are ignoring the facts. I work in the aerospace industries and can say that I do know quite a bit about jet oil and what it can and can not do. I never run the factory recommend oil after the warranties on my vehicles had expired because I know that there are better oils out there. Most of my vehicles have lasted beyond 200K miles using my own blend that are not any where close to the specifications for the vehicles.
BTW, jet oil do come into contact with combustion gases due to engine loosing its tolerances. This is why Mobil Jet Oil 254 is advertised to: "Reduces the formation of carbon and sludge deposits. Maintains engine efficiency and extends engine life. Reduces bulk oil oxidation by 50% and increases deposit control by 50º F. Mobil Jet Oil 254 is completely compatible with all metals used in gas turbine construction, as well as with F Rubber (Viton A), H Rubber (Buna N), and other commonly used seal materials." We use Mobil 254 exclusively in all of our aircraft maintenance and repairs, and I also use it in my special car blend.
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MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
What critical additive do you think I will be diluting when the variation in additives between oils of same grade and classification can be up to 50%? There are much more anti wear additive in jet oil than in almost any car oils.
AZ, I didn't know you were a synthetic oil chemist.
I think you will be diluting the anti-wear additives and reducing the viscosity. I have never seen a 50% variation in modern PCMO AW additives.
In jet engine oils of 5.0 cSt such as XOM 254, the main additives are antioxidants, anti-foam, and anti-corrosion agents. The anti-shearing properties of the oil film provide most of the anti-wear properties of the oil. Much research has and is being done to develop new anti-oxidant and thermal resistant additive agents for jet turbine oils.
Where in the jet engine does the oil see the flame of combustion?
Quote:
Reduces the formation of carbon and sludge deposits
Carbon and sludge come about by mostly thermal degradation of an oil in a jet engine due to hot soaking. However, the air-oil and fuel-oil heat exchangers do a good job of cooling the oil in flight.
What critical additive do you think I will be diluting when the variation in additives between oils of same grade and classification can be up to 50%? There are much more anti wear additive in jet oil than in almost any car oils.
AZ, I didn't know you were a synthetic oil chemist.
I think you will be diluting the anti-wear additives and reducing the viscosity. I have never seen a 50% variation in modern PCMO AW additives.
In jet engine oils of 5.0 cSt such as XOM 254, the main additives are antioxidants, anti-foam, and anti-corrosion agents. The anti-shearing properties of the oil film provide most of the anti-wear properties of the oil. Much research has and is being done to develop new anti-oxidant and thermal resistant additive agents for jet turbine oils.
Where in the jet engine does the oil see the flame of combustion?
Quote:
Reduces the formation of carbon and sludge deposits
Carbon and sludge come about by mostly thermal degradation of an oil in a jet engine due to hot soaking. However, the air-oil and fuel-oil heat exchangers do a good job of cooling the oil in flight.
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azsynthetic, I am done giving you my opinion, run whatever you want and choose to ignore (now two) lubrication engineers.
As a former JET ENGINE MECHANIC (I tore them down to nuts and bolts, carbon seals, lip seals, rotors, hubs, and blades and then built them back up) in the USAF I can tell you first hand that the oil does not come into contact with combustion gasses in a turbine engine. it does come into contact with high heat and potential shearing from gears. This isn't just something I read off the oil can.
As a former JET ENGINE MECHANIC (I tore them down to nuts and bolts, carbon seals, lip seals, rotors, hubs, and blades and then built them back up) in the USAF I can tell you first hand that the oil does not come into contact with combustion gasses in a turbine engine. it does come into contact with high heat and potential shearing from gears. This isn't just something I read off the oil can.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I think you will be diluting the anti-wear additives and reducing the viscosity. I have never seen a 50% variation in modern PCMO AW additives.
Where in the jet engine does the oil see the flame of combustion?
Have you compared the AW between Maxima oil and other run of the mill synthetic oils. You will be surprised at the level of AW in the same oil grade.
Generally, APU or Engine oil seals are worn or damaged which lead to oils being consumed. The toxic fumes then find their way into the aircraft's ventilation system, certain aircraft types are more prone than others, the worst offenders are the B757s. On a long flight enough oil is consumed to cause low oil pressure or a failed oil pump. Due to the low or no oil pressure and damaged oil seals, the exhaust gas will now force itself into the oiling system and contaminate the oil supply. This is a well known problem in third world countries where aircraft maintenance is subpar. To be fair, these third world countries are operating well used and hand me down aircrafts that no body wants.
Oil contamination is uncommon but it does happen.
I think you will be diluting the anti-wear additives and reducing the viscosity. I have never seen a 50% variation in modern PCMO AW additives.
Where in the jet engine does the oil see the flame of combustion?
Have you compared the AW between Maxima oil and other run of the mill synthetic oils. You will be surprised at the level of AW in the same oil grade.
Generally, APU or Engine oil seals are worn or damaged which lead to oils being consumed. The toxic fumes then find their way into the aircraft's ventilation system, certain aircraft types are more prone than others, the worst offenders are the B757s. On a long flight enough oil is consumed to cause low oil pressure or a failed oil pump. Due to the low or no oil pressure and damaged oil seals, the exhaust gas will now force itself into the oiling system and contaminate the oil supply. This is a well known problem in third world countries where aircraft maintenance is subpar. To be fair, these third world countries are operating well used and hand me down aircrafts that no body wants.
Oil contamination is uncommon but it does happen.
Originally Posted By: tom slick
As a former JET ENGINE MECHANIC (I tore them down to nuts and bolts, carbon seals, lip seals, rotors, hubs, and blades and then built them back up) in the USAF I can tell you first hand that the oil does not come into contact with combustion gasses in a turbine engine. it does come into contact with high heat and potential shearing from gears. This isn't just something I read off the oil can.
Being a jet engine mechanic is the reason why you don't know how the problem occurred. Your job is to replace the part not to redesign the engine. As a subcontractor engineer for GE and P&W I routinely offer hands on solution to their engineers for product improvements. Also, as a current CW4 in the Army Reserve for the Apache Longbow out of Ft. Hood I teach many recruits on how to take a turbine engine apart on a yearly basis.
Please see the post above on how oil can come into contact with combustion gases in a jet engine. The more you know.....
As a former JET ENGINE MECHANIC (I tore them down to nuts and bolts, carbon seals, lip seals, rotors, hubs, and blades and then built them back up) in the USAF I can tell you first hand that the oil does not come into contact with combustion gasses in a turbine engine. it does come into contact with high heat and potential shearing from gears. This isn't just something I read off the oil can.
Being a jet engine mechanic is the reason why you don't know how the problem occurred. Your job is to replace the part not to redesign the engine. As a subcontractor engineer for GE and P&W I routinely offer hands on solution to their engineers for product improvements. Also, as a current CW4 in the Army Reserve for the Apache Longbow out of Ft. Hood I teach many recruits on how to take a turbine engine apart on a yearly basis.
Please see the post above on how oil can come into contact with combustion gases in a jet engine. The more you know.....
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
I can get jet oil at work by the pallet at a little over $6/qt, a lot cheaper than many synthetics at Autozones or Checkers.
Off topic, but I ENVY YOU!
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
The anti-shearing properties of the oil film provide most of the anti-wear properties of the oil.
I can get jet oil at work by the pallet at a little over $6/qt, a lot cheaper than many synthetics at Autozones or Checkers.
Off topic, but I ENVY YOU!
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
The anti-shearing properties of the oil film provide most of the anti-wear properties of the oil.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Have you compared the AW between Maxima oil and other run of the mill synthetic oils. You will be surprised at the level of AW in the same oil grade.
I still have not seen any supporting data from you and you have not made your point. Each API classification has certain levels of AW additives and not all AW additives are ZDDP. Some AW additives can't be shown in a VOA/UOA.
Most APU's will shut down or give you a MAINT light with low oil levels. You have changed the topic and are now talking about worn labyrinth seals and malfunctions in an APU with centrifugal compressors.
http://www.b737.org.uk/apu.htm#Components
In an axial flow turbine, the flame of combustion is contained in the combustor cans or ring (annular) combustor at the rear of the engine with the support and thrust bearings in bearing cells (self-contained bearing assemblies with seals) and BEFORE the combustor chamber. The oil is under slight oil pressure for circulation/cooling purposes.
Now the PT6A turboprop engine uses both an axial and centrifugal compressors in a reverse flow configuration.
I suppose if a labyrinth seal is really worn some oil could migrate or flow out and into the compressor stage(s) and be sent to the combustor where it would be burned. But then again, we're talking about a maintenance problem here.
Have you compared the AW between Maxima oil and other run of the mill synthetic oils. You will be surprised at the level of AW in the same oil grade.
I still have not seen any supporting data from you and you have not made your point. Each API classification has certain levels of AW additives and not all AW additives are ZDDP. Some AW additives can't be shown in a VOA/UOA.
Most APU's will shut down or give you a MAINT light with low oil levels. You have changed the topic and are now talking about worn labyrinth seals and malfunctions in an APU with centrifugal compressors.
http://www.b737.org.uk/apu.htm#Components
In an axial flow turbine, the flame of combustion is contained in the combustor cans or ring (annular) combustor at the rear of the engine with the support and thrust bearings in bearing cells (self-contained bearing assemblies with seals) and BEFORE the combustor chamber. The oil is under slight oil pressure for circulation/cooling purposes.
Now the PT6A turboprop engine uses both an axial and centrifugal compressors in a reverse flow configuration.
I suppose if a labyrinth seal is really worn some oil could migrate or flow out and into the compressor stage(s) and be sent to the combustor where it would be burned. But then again, we're talking about a maintenance problem here.
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