Aircraft oils on cars

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There is more to consider than oil film thickness; additive packages differ between jet turbine oils (JTO) and automotive oils.

JTO's are mostly POE bases and may have kinematic viscosities ranging from 3 cSt all the way up to 20 cSt or higher.

Jet engine oils do not see hot combustion gasses as do recips and therefore do not have the proper set of additives for use in recips.

JTO's do have special anti-oxidants to keep them from oxidizing at hot soaking temps, with some anti-corrosive and anti-rust adds as well, and may not be compatible with automotive seals.

I would not JTO's oils in any recips.




Additive packages differ between different brands of automotive oils, so what? It is what the additives suppose to do that is important, not what they are.

Jet engine oil do not see combustion gases and this is why they last so long. In automotive application you just have to adjust the OCI, similar to using racing oil in passenger cars. Using racing oil is not going to hurt the engine if you keep the OCI in check.

I would not use straight jet oil in automotive engine, but a 20-25% mix with dino is not going to do any harm. I have done it for over 80K miles in a '91 Chevy V8 engine with no problem. I also mix it with diesel as an UCL for my PSD and got better mileage. Heck, Amsoil's founder even admitted to using jet oil in his car before starting the company.
 
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Heck, Amsoil's founder even admitted to using jet oil in his car before starting the company.



Boy, now there's a sell point right there!
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"It is what the additives suppose to do that is important, not what they are." Huh?

Additive chemistry enhances and improves the base oil's ability to deal with specific conditions in a specific application.

Al Amatuzio was using additized/modified jet engine oil in test engines. We can't make broad statements about specific situations.
 
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"It is what the additives suppose to do that is important, not what they are." Huh?

Additive chemistry enhances and improves the base oil's ability to deal with specific conditions in a specific application.





Different manufacturers use different additive chemistry to do the same thing. As long as the oil meet the rated spec, the additive chemistry is irrelevant to the end users except for bragging right.
 
There's your answer then.

Let me know when you find a gas turbine oil that meets SL, GF-4, and CG.

I might be interested.
 
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There's your answer then.

Let me know when you find a gas turbine oil that meets SL, GF-4, and CG.

I might be interested.




If you look at the specs that gas turbine oil has to meet you will see that it exceed SL, GF-4, and CG rated performance in many, not all but many, areas. By blending it with PCMO you can exceed those spec. I don't recommend running straight jet oil, but a blend is not going to hurt your motor. I am running it right now as a blend in my truck with over 250K on odom with no problem.
 
"As long as the oil meet the rated spec, the additive chemistry is irrelevant to the end users except for bragging right."

It is the combination of additive chemistry AND the correct chemistry/mix of base oils AND testing that allow an oil to meet either automotive specifications or JTO specifications, and it has nothing to do with bragging rights.

I personally believe it is dangerous to experiment without rigorous testing and analysis, and without knowing the interactions between various base oils and additives.

You may have 250k on the odometer but I seriously doubt you have run this blend over 250k in the same engine.

In any experiment, one wants a control specimen and say 3, 3k analyses on the control specimens in order to establish a baseline. Once you have a baseline, then you can run your new formulation with appropriate analyses. Terry Dyson has the scientific expertise to help with such an experiment.

We look forward to your Used Oil Analysis as you proceed with your experiment.
 
[quoteIt is the combination of additive chemistry AND the correct chemistry/mix of base oils AND testing that allow an oil to meet either automotive specifications or JTO specifications, and it has nothing to do with bragging rights.

I personally believe it is dangerous to experiment without rigorous testing and analysis, and without knowing the interactions between various base oils and additives.

You may have 250k on the odometer but I seriously doubt you have run this blend over 250k in the same engine.

In any experiment, one wants a control specimen and say 3, 3k analyses on the control specimens in order to establish a baseline. Once you have a baseline, then you can run your new formulation with appropriate analyses. Terry Dyson has the scientific expertise to help with such an experiment.

We look forward to your Used Oil Analysis as you proceed with your experiment.




My 91' Chevy truck is actually my experiment for mixing oil because the engine/drive train is the only thing that is still in good shape. I was going to trade it in at 170K but the dealer was going to give me only $2200 for it so I kept it. Since then, I run the cheapest oil I can find on sale mix with Mobil 254 jet oil that I get for free from work. The engine never use more than half a quart every 5K miles and does not leak. I do have an Amsoil bypass filter so I change oil every 10K. I average 16mpg empty and 10mpg towing a 28ft RV. Up until 170K miles I ran the cheapest 10W30 synthetic oil that I can find. The engine, 350 V8, is original except for a new water pump and alternator, the dang thing just won't die.
 
I had a '92 350 in a Burb that went over 350k and the engine was never torn down; compresion in each cylinder was always around 130 psi until I sold it. The only item I had to have replaced was the distributor. Always used a top of the line synthetic such as Amsoil, Mobil 1, rEDLINE, and of course our experimental synthetic fluids.

From the Mobil website:

"Mobil Jet Oil 254 is a third-generation, extra high performance, synthetic aircraft-type gas turbine lubricant engineered to meet the performance requirements for gas turbine engines used in commercial and military aircraft. This product is formulated from a specially prepared, hindered-ester base stock and fortified with a unique chemical additive package. The result is a product having superior thermal and oxidation stability that resists deterioration and deposit formation while maintaining the physical characteristics required by builder and military specifications. The physical properties of Mobil Jet Oil 254 are similar to those currently available, earlier-generation gas turbine lubricants. The effective operating range of the lubricant is between -40°C (-40 °F) and 232°C (450°F).

...Mobil Jet Oil 254 reduces bulk oil oxidation by up to 50 percent and shows deposit control capability 50 F higher. These properties have been confirmed in various laboratory tests including; the Corrosion-Oxidation Stability Test, Alcor Deposition Test, Vapor Phase Coker, Erdco High-Temperature Bearing Test, Ryder Gear and the Mobil Thin Film Oxidation Test. The closely controlled low-temperature viscosity of Mobil Jet Oil 254, along with its low pour point (below -54 ºC), ensure good low-temperature fluidity to permit starting and lubrication at temperatures as low as -40 ºC. In extensive laboratory testing and in-flight experience, Mobil Jet Oil 254 also exhibits excellent bulk oil stability at temperatures up to 232 ºC (450 ºF) for extended periods. The evaporation rate at these temperatures is low enough to prevent excessive loss of volume. The load-carrying ability of Mobil Jet Oil 254 comes from its synthetic base stock viscosity and, therefore, is not subject to loss from viscosity index additive shear. The lubricant has excellent resistance to foaming."

The viscosity of 254 is around 5.3 cSt so I would be concerned about too much thinning of the other oil. If one used a thick 10W30 or 10W40 mineral oil with about 10% 254 and an oil analysis program it would be interesting to see how the UOA numbers stack up. My concern is that without a UOA, you are running a blind experiment.

The hindered esters should certainly keep the engine clean.
 
I ran it over 80K now on a mix of mostly cheap, sometimes almost free, Chevron or Penzoil 10-40 dino and Jet 254 at a ratio of 5:2. Total capacity is 7 quarts with the bypass filter. Make up oil is dino 10-40. It has survives 4 years of AZ summer with no problem that I can see. It is true that my experiment is uncontrolled, but then again I was trying to run my truck to the ground. To date I still have not a good reason to get a new truck, or so said my wife. The truck is a rust bucket, but it runs like a dream.
 
Pennzane oil was used in space because its ability to resist evaporation in a complete vacuum. It was used instead of Dupont Florinert because Pennzane could be converted into a grease.

However, since Pennzane costs about $400 per quart, I'm not sure anybody wants to use much of it.

Pennzoil did brag that Pennzane was used in their synthetic engine oils at one time. That in mind, it was probably used in such a small quantity, that nobody would know the difference.
 
I heard a story at work where they suspected the security guard of stealing a case of MIL-PRF-23699 turbine engine oil.

They knew for sure when the guard showed up about a week later in a rental car. Seems that he took the 23699 home, used it full strength in his car, and spun a main bearing!

It just might work if you dilute it with something else. I'm not certain, but I'd bet that the 23699 doesn't contain any EP additives nor any detergents.

Now if you mixed 23699 with SLOB, you might have an awesome automotive oil!
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I'll stick with Amsoil/Wally World Synthetic...

later,
b
 
Originally Posted By: kd5byb
II'm not certain, but I'd bet that the 23699 doesn't contain any EP additives nor any detergents.



3 to 5% of P is more than sufficient as EP additive. As a 20-30% mix with PCMO you would have more than adequate detergents depending on pan capacity. Also, all current turbine oils are Group V and is the best for cleaning your engine.
 
"Pennzoil did brag that Pennzane was used in their synthetic engine oils at one time. That in mind, it was probably used in such a small quantity, that nobody would know the difference."

With a polymer such as Pennzane, it doesn't take much Pennzane to affect the performance of the bulk oil.

In my view, Pennzoil had the best synthetic oil when they used their PAO/ester/Pennzane mix.
 
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