Aircraft Areoshell in HD V-Twins?

[hotroadking]

A couple of guys were talking about using Aeroshell oil in their AirCooled Harley Davidson V-twins, breaking in the motor with mineral oil and switching over to the Aeroshell.

Is this something that you could or should do?

What advantage would it have

What disadvantge would it create

Just curious, us motorcycle people are always looking for something different to do LOL

I know there is a aircraft forum as well and I'll put this over there as well, but didn't know if many of the folks posting in the airplane forum would look into the motorcycle forum.

Thanks for taking the time to look and answer.

 

[msparks]

quote:

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Originally posted by hotroadking:
A couple of guys were talking about using Aeroshell oil in their AirCooled Harley Davidson V-twins, breaking in the motor with mineral oil and switching over to the Aeroshell.

Is this something that you could or should do?

What advantage would it have

What disadvantge would it create

Just curious, us motorcycle people are always looking for something different to do LOL

Thanks for taking the time to look and answer.

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I would not use aircraft oil in my bike. I've read several Harley rags and they also recommend not doing it. Primary reason is that Aircraft oil does not contain some additives that regular motor oil does(I'm think ASH, but could be wrong)

I would stick with the Harley oil before I would use the Aircraft stuff.

 

[hotroadking]

I understand what you're saying, however several of them have said they've done 20 to 50 thousand miles without problems, one said he'd done a big bore upgrade and had been running the oil and had no visable problems in the motor (it's the not so visable ones you have to be concerned with) Just wondered if there were any issues from an engineering standpoint, ie what's different from air cooled airplane motor requirements and blends and air cooled v-twin motor requirements. I would think the airplane requirements would be tougher due to the nature of the transportation.

 

[customcutter]

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Just wondered if there were any issues from an engineering standpoint, ie what's different from air cooled airplane motor requirements and blends and air cooled v-twin motor requirements. I would think the airplane requirements would be tougher due to the nature of the transportation.

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I don't know anything about the Aeroshell. However, I would be concerned with friction modifiers if there are any. Also I think the HD motor would possibly have more shearing surfaces than an aircraft engine, which could quickly thin the oil.

I'm no engineer, and have been trying to find a better oil to run in my Vic. Those are the main concerns that I have with my bike. You may want to try a post at the Shell Rotella Forum. They have a "resident expert" that tries to answer questions for consumers. Good luck, and hope you find something suitable. I have been trying to get hard facts instead of opinions, but it looks like I am going to have to try several different oils and then go by used oil analysis.

customcutter

 

[Ed]

It's always informative to actually run tests when using products not specifically designed for the application. It's really good when someone else spends the money and wrecks their engine or reports superb results. Ive often read that aircraft oil is for aircraft, automotive oil is for automobiles, racing oil is for racing , lawnmower oil is for lawnmowers etc. ad infinitum.
It's easy to see why aicraft oil might be considered superior if for no other reason that engine failure in an aircraft is serious business and that the airplane crowd would not even consider anything but the best.. One does have to put a tad bit of faith in the skill and knowledge petroleum engineers and engine designers. These guys didn't become qualified to do what they do by hanging out at the local garage(although many got their start there)
Aircraft engines rarely run at less than very close to maximum output. Automotive engines rarely run even close to those conditions and motorcycles (well I couldn't venture a guess).
What I'm saying is that conventional wisdom doesn't always work and that most lubricants are best at doing what they were specifically designed to do for a given application.
Ed

 

[hotroadking]

Originally posted by Ed:
It's always informative to actually run tests when using products not specifically designed for the application. Except that reporting it does a great job without any engineering reports or analysis could cause people to believe it's ok yet long term it be causing damage or have the potential to damage a motor

It's really good when someone else spends the money and wrecks their engine or reports superb results. Very True rather someone else screw something up first

Ive often read that aircraft oil is for aircraft, automotive oil is for automobiles, racing oil is for racing , lawnmower oil is for lawnmowers etc. ad infinitum.
Yes, but even in HD's literature its ok to run Diesel Oil or any 20W-50 motor oil in the CF group as a replacement for HD labeled oil


It's easy to see why aicraft oil might be considered superior if for no other reason that engine failure in an aircraft is serious business and that the airplane crowd would not even consider anything but the best..
Yes but while airplanes run at a higher constant % of power, I would venture to guess aiplanes operate in a cooler environment as the higher you go the cooler the exterior temperature. Airplanes are rarely subjected to start and go traffic whereas motorcycles are on a regular basis


One does have to put a tad bit of faith in the skill and knowledge petroleum engineers and engine designers. These guys didn't become qualified to do what they do by hanging out at the local garage(although many got their start there)
True, would like to see someone chime in here

Aircraft engines rarely run at less than very close to maximum output. Automotive engines rarely run even close to those conditions and motorcycles (well I couldn't venture a guess).
True but again, motorcycle and automotive oils are different air vs. liquid cooled, stop and go traffic, extreme heat conditions, parade duty, main street in daytona all things Planes don't generally participate in.


What I'm saying is that conventional wisdom doesn't always work and that most lubricants are best at doing what they were specifically designed to do for a given application.
Ed
I'd agree, would love to hear some cold hard facts on the oil and what's different in Airplane oil vs. air cooled motor oil, would a Pilot ever put mobil 1 20W-50 in his plane and run it because it's "just as good" or "so and so did it in the 60-s and 70's and never had a problem.

 

[bighitr]

Well..I have an '02 HD and an airplane. My question is..do they even have an Aeroshell than has a viscosity under 100? Or even a multi-blend? Then aircraft engines I know are tested at approx. 80 degrees OAT and run for many hours at max rpm's. In this case around 2,300-2,400. But I would think the viscosity is the real issue here.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by hotroadking:
I'd agree, would love to hear some cold hard facts on the oil and what's different in Airplane oil vs. air cooled motor oil, would a Pilot ever put mobil 1 20W-50 in his plane and run it because it's "just as good" or "so and so did it in the 60-s and 70's and never had a problem.

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Google the key words aircraft automotive oil differences and you will find several articles about the differences between automotive and aircraft oil.

 

[Jimbo]

quote:

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Originally posted by bighitr:
Well..I have an '02 HD and an airplane. My question is..do they even have an Aeroshell than has a viscosity under 100? Or even a multi-blend? Then aircraft engines I know are tested at approx. 80 degrees OAT and run for many hours at max rpm's. In this case around 2,300-2,400. But I would think the viscosity is the real issue here.

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What kind of airplane do you have?

Aeroshell W is available in grades 65 (SAE 30), 80 (SAE 40), 100 (SAE 50, the most popular) and 120 (SAE 60). They also have 15W50 synthetic blend.

I tried the 80 grade in my 1973 BMW R60/5. There was no oil analysis in those days, so I cannot report performance based on wear metals, etc. What I can report is a buildup of varnish the next time I opened up the rocker covers to do a valve adjustment. I switched to Valvoline Racing oil after that.

Thinking that the BMW horizontally opposed air-cooled engine from a company that started out building aircraft engines, aircraft oil would be a good choice. I was wrong because the operating conditions are so different. Road bikes tend to idle in traffic and produce full power for only a few seconds at a time, at very high rpm. Airplanes, unless they are just flown in the pattern, are at high power settings (60-100 percent) most of the time at low rpm (typically 2500 rpm redline). We try to make sure that the oil is at operating temperature before takeoff. Oil changes are often at 50 hours, pretty short for a road vehicle.

I could not get an MSDS because the Aeroshell website right now seems to be the UK one and not North America. From memory, the straight grades are Group I and the blend is 50/50 PAO and Group I. It is the additive package, or lack of one is of most concern. According to Shell, It is a non-metallic "polymeric" anti-foam and dispersant additive, known as "ashless dispersant". There is no barium, no calcium and no zinc. There is no TBN. This oil is mainly intended to burn off cleanly without fouling the spark plugs and to scavenge and hold lead from the fuel. None of the detergent, anti-oxidant, acid-neutralizing or anti-wear additives that we normally expect to see are there.

The W100 Plus and 15W-50 blend do contain the Lycoming Tricrisal (dont remember the exact spelling) Phosphate additive for a little extra protection of the cam and lifters.

 

[hotroadking]

Excellent information to know, my concerns were that the additives for a plane may be different than for a bike.

Air Cooled HD or BMW aside the operating conditions are opposite extremes and it would seem to me that the oil package would be different.

 

[GeorgeCLS]

The problem with using an aircraft oil is that it is practically void of all the good additives we need for our motorcycle engines! One of the previous posts mentioned the "low ash" requirement for aircraft: low ash translates into low additives. We need a boatload of additization for our engines.
Yes, Aeroshell will work but it is far from the optimum oil for a motorcycle engine/Harley/v-twin.
High quality base stock but that is about it..
You would be far better off using a motorcycle specific oil and yes, synthetic, to help with the cooling aspect. In an air cooled engine, 40% of the cooling is from oil. If one uses an oil which disappates heat at a higher rate, we have a cooler running engine.. Longer lasting engine..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
AV Lubricants Inc.
Columbus, Ohio

 

[sprintman]

George can you confirm D1 and SUV are one and the same?

 

[Jimbo]

quote:

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Originally posted by hotroadking:
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Air Cooled HD or BMW aside the operating conditions are opposite extremes and it would seem to me that the oil package would be different.

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?

 

[hotroadking]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jimbo:

quote:

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Originally posted by hotroadking:
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Air Cooled HD or BMW aside the operating conditions are opposite extremes and it would seem to me that the oil package would be different.

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?

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Just trying to say because an engine is air cooled that in and of itself isn't a good reason to believe that an "air cooled" product is good enough, I was agreeing with your post above.