AE Haas recommends oil pressure to decide weight
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IIRC Dr. Haas was a chemical engineer before going to medical school.
Originally Posted By: ProfPS
IIRC Dr. Haas was a chemical engineer before going to medical school.
How 'bout that.
The man has the courage to run very light oils in Italian exotics he actaully paid for.
How many of us can demonstrate that level of courage in our convictions?
IIRC Dr. Haas was a chemical engineer before going to medical school.
How 'bout that.
The man has the courage to run very light oils in Italian exotics he actaully paid for.
How many of us can demonstrate that level of courage in our convictions?
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: ProfPS
IIRC Dr. Haas was a chemical engineer before going to medical school.
How 'bout that.
The man has the courage to run very light oils in Italian exotics he actaully paid for.
How many of us can demonstrate that level of courage in our convictions?
But as I understand it, he mostly putters around barely gets the oil up to operating temp... If I owned one, it would have the dog do-do run out of it and not on 5W-20 oil...
Originally Posted By: ProfPS
IIRC Dr. Haas was a chemical engineer before going to medical school.
How 'bout that.
The man has the courage to run very light oils in Italian exotics he actaully paid for.
How many of us can demonstrate that level of courage in our convictions?
But as I understand it, he mostly putters around barely gets the oil up to operating temp... If I owned one, it would have the dog do-do run out of it and not on 5W-20 oil...
Hi,
crinkles - You said this:
Originally Posted By: crinkles
he's a plastic surgeon. not an automotive engineer. no disrespect intended.
There is surely nothing offensive in what you said - and the word "just" is not contained in it
CATERHAM - is "on the ball" IMO! His position is that actually being followed by various "Policy" makers in the design of new wave lubricants to match new and evolving engine Technologies. The HTHS viscosity plays a very important role in engine durability and is an integral part of the Manufacturer's recommended viscosities
When I first mentioned ACEA and HTHS viscosities and their relevance on BITOG nearly 10 years I was ostracized. At least people are being educated in the process - as they are in here
For the average reader on BITOG it is wise IMO and IME to follow the Manufacturer's lubricant specifications - using the lowest that aplies in your circumstances
Mr Haas has his opinions and others are surely entitled to theirs - without malice or intent
crinkles - You said this:
Originally Posted By: crinkles
he's a plastic surgeon. not an automotive engineer. no disrespect intended.
There is surely nothing offensive in what you said - and the word "just" is not contained in it
CATERHAM - is "on the ball" IMO! His position is that actually being followed by various "Policy" makers in the design of new wave lubricants to match new and evolving engine Technologies. The HTHS viscosity plays a very important role in engine durability and is an integral part of the Manufacturer's recommended viscosities
When I first mentioned ACEA and HTHS viscosities and their relevance on BITOG nearly 10 years I was ostracized. At least people are being educated in the process - as they are in here
For the average reader on BITOG it is wise IMO and IME to follow the Manufacturer's lubricant specifications - using the lowest that aplies in your circumstances
Mr Haas has his opinions and others are surely entitled to theirs - without malice or intent
Last edited:
For his and his wife driving conditions, xW20 is perfectly fine in their expensive engines. He didn't blindly follow owner manual, because he understand the basic of oil viscosity at various temperatures. Why should he use thick oil as recommended in the manual when his daily commute is less than 10 miles ?
Originally Posted By: hate2work
Originally Posted By: Unleashedbeast
Haas is one of the reasons why I have tempted fate by using a lighter lubricant in my Shelby for street use. Ford recommends 5W-50, but I have proven that is too heavy for street use. I am now using 10W-30. Awaiting a UOA soon.
How have you proven that? Do you mean that you've been using a lighter oil and the engine hasn't seized? Or some other means?
Correct, I have been using 10W-40 and 10W-30 true synthetics in my Shelby. Pressure testing, as in Haas' article, proved to be too great using a 50 grade lubricant for street use. Since Ford recommends Motorcraft 5W-50, it easily shears to a heavy 30 grade lubricant, and Ford is comfortable with that....I began testing lighter viscosity oils that would not shear. So far Amsoil 10W-40 returned two great UOAs in 4,124 miles of testing. Now I'm testing Amsoil 10W-30. Hot oil pressure for street use are improved.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
How 'bout that.
The man has the courage to run very light oils in Italian exotics he actaully paid for.
How many of us can demonstrate that level of courage in our convictions?
Originally Posted By: TFB1
But as I understand it, he mostly putters around barely gets the oil up to operating temp... If I owned one, it would have the dog do-do run out of it and not on 5W-20 oil...
Which is why I will stop at a 10W-30. My car has too much HP/TQ to fool around with a 20 grade lubricant. No way would I trust the film strength, even in a true synthetic. HT/HS wouldn't be great enough for aggressive street driving and drag racing IMO.
Originally Posted By: Unleashedbeast
Haas is one of the reasons why I have tempted fate by using a lighter lubricant in my Shelby for street use. Ford recommends 5W-50, but I have proven that is too heavy for street use. I am now using 10W-30. Awaiting a UOA soon.
How have you proven that? Do you mean that you've been using a lighter oil and the engine hasn't seized? Or some other means?
Correct, I have been using 10W-40 and 10W-30 true synthetics in my Shelby. Pressure testing, as in Haas' article, proved to be too great using a 50 grade lubricant for street use. Since Ford recommends Motorcraft 5W-50, it easily shears to a heavy 30 grade lubricant, and Ford is comfortable with that....I began testing lighter viscosity oils that would not shear. So far Amsoil 10W-40 returned two great UOAs in 4,124 miles of testing. Now I'm testing Amsoil 10W-30. Hot oil pressure for street use are improved.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
How 'bout that.
The man has the courage to run very light oils in Italian exotics he actaully paid for.
How many of us can demonstrate that level of courage in our convictions?
Originally Posted By: TFB1
But as I understand it, he mostly putters around barely gets the oil up to operating temp... If I owned one, it would have the dog do-do run out of it and not on 5W-20 oil...
Which is why I will stop at a 10W-30. My car has too much HP/TQ to fool around with a 20 grade lubricant. No way would I trust the film strength, even in a true synthetic. HT/HS wouldn't be great enough for aggressive street driving and drag racing IMO.
"At absolute zero (-273 degrees Celsius, -469 degrees Fahrenheit) when all atomic and molecular activity stops.
But that is not what you are asking. Motor oil, even so-called multigrade motor oil like Mobil 1 5W-30, looses viscosity the hotter it gets. Your oil is thickest (highest viscosity) when it is coldest.
The reason to warm up the engine before "gettin' on it" is to allow thermal expansion of the block to occur. Combustion temperature will heat the pistons, and make them grow in diameter, very quickly and effectively. If the block is not at operating temperature, you can scuff or even seize some pistons, not a pleasant occurrence.
So you should really be watching the coolant temperature, and let it get above 160F (the closer to your normal operating temperature the better) before hammering the throttle.
Bearings love lots of cool, thick oil, and as long as the oil pump can pump it, the cooler the better.
(Please note, in a past life I was the Director of Research and Development for the Clevite Bearing Co., hence my screen name.)"
But that is not what you are asking. Motor oil, even so-called multigrade motor oil like Mobil 1 5W-30, looses viscosity the hotter it gets. Your oil is thickest (highest viscosity) when it is coldest.
The reason to warm up the engine before "gettin' on it" is to allow thermal expansion of the block to occur. Combustion temperature will heat the pistons, and make them grow in diameter, very quickly and effectively. If the block is not at operating temperature, you can scuff or even seize some pistons, not a pleasant occurrence.
So you should really be watching the coolant temperature, and let it get above 160F (the closer to your normal operating temperature the better) before hammering the throttle.
Bearings love lots of cool, thick oil, and as long as the oil pump can pump it, the cooler the better.
(Please note, in a past life I was the Director of Research and Development for the Clevite Bearing Co., hence my screen name.)"
It think it is important to note that while your water coolant temperatures may get up to 180F within 2 - 3 minutes of driving your oil will take 20 to 30 minutes to reach 180F.
This is one reason I prefer thinner oils when possible as I may rev the engine to 9,000 RPM with "cold" oil in the sump (currently around 80F). And yes, the amount of wear per revolution is greater until the oil gets up to around 180F or hotter.
Ref: Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in SI (Spark-Ignition) Engines, Schneider et al:
The rate of wear is much higher within 15-20 minutes of start-up than after reaching normal operating temperature. There was a lot of data but I conclude that the initial start-up time period (first 20 minutes) result is 100 nanometers of wear whereas the steady state wear rate was only 4 nanometers per hour thereafter. (Hence we should be concerned about start-up oil thickness more than running thickness. This justifies the statement that 95 percent of engine wear occurs just after start-up). Others also located at:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles#faq_research_paper_reviews
aehaas
PS Eric Schneider's recent work on thinner oils was curtailed with the demise of GM, less monies are available for research apparently.
This is one reason I prefer thinner oils when possible as I may rev the engine to 9,000 RPM with "cold" oil in the sump (currently around 80F). And yes, the amount of wear per revolution is greater until the oil gets up to around 180F or hotter.
Ref: Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in SI (Spark-Ignition) Engines, Schneider et al:
The rate of wear is much higher within 15-20 minutes of start-up than after reaching normal operating temperature. There was a lot of data but I conclude that the initial start-up time period (first 20 minutes) result is 100 nanometers of wear whereas the steady state wear rate was only 4 nanometers per hour thereafter. (Hence we should be concerned about start-up oil thickness more than running thickness. This justifies the statement that 95 percent of engine wear occurs just after start-up). Others also located at:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles#faq_research_paper_reviews
aehaas
PS Eric Schneider's recent work on thinner oils was curtailed with the demise of GM, less monies are available for research apparently.
Interesting that my car takes less than 10 minutes to get to 180.
I really feel that statement should be qualified by engine design and application!
I really feel that statement should be qualified by engine design and application!
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: ProfPS
IIRC Dr. Haas was a chemical engineer before going to medical school.
How 'bout that.
The man has the courage to run very light oils in Italian exotics he actaully paid for.
How many of us can demonstrate that level of courage in our convictions?
But as I understand it, he mostly putters around barely gets the oil up to operating temp... If I owned one, it would have the dog do-do run out of it and not on 5W-20 oil...
I suspect that unless you actually tracked one of these cars, you'd have a hard time getting the oil very warm.
I picture myself driving one to work, and other than brief runs to redline in the appropriate gear while passing on the two lane, the car would not get run very hard.
You could only run one of these cars really hard on the street if you had diplomatic immunity.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: ProfPS
IIRC Dr. Haas was a chemical engineer before going to medical school.
How 'bout that.
The man has the courage to run very light oils in Italian exotics he actaully paid for.
How many of us can demonstrate that level of courage in our convictions?
But as I understand it, he mostly putters around barely gets the oil up to operating temp... If I owned one, it would have the dog do-do run out of it and not on 5W-20 oil...
I suspect that unless you actually tracked one of these cars, you'd have a hard time getting the oil very warm.
I picture myself driving one to work, and other than brief runs to redline in the appropriate gear while passing on the two lane, the car would not get run very hard.
You could only run one of these cars really hard on the street if you had diplomatic immunity.
crinkles: The audience is me. I was speaking for myself and my words weren't necessarily directed at, or just at, you. If you read the posts above yours, and the many others similar ones that have come before, you will find the source of my irritation, which boiled over a bit. I don't apologize but my goal isn't to hurt anyone, just to make them think.
I put "just" in my words because that is the implication. I admit in some cases that's "reading between the lines" a bit but not actually writing the word doesn't mean a person didn't intend for their statement to be interpreted that way, it's just leaves them an out...and a way to be "offended" later.
Most of us, the vast majority of us here, are just schlubs. Oil nerds. We may be experts in some field or another but darn few of us are what could even be remotely be called experts in the field of lubrication. So how do Haas' opinions carry any less weight that some other schlub here just because he's a plastic surgeon? If indeed he has a degree as a chemical engineer, that gives his opinions a little more weight than most of the rest of us schlubs.
Rip Dr. Haas opinions apart if you must... but on the facts. It's only right.
I put "just" in my words because that is the implication. I admit in some cases that's "reading between the lines" a bit but not actually writing the word doesn't mean a person didn't intend for their statement to be interpreted that way, it's just leaves them an out...and a way to be "offended" later.
Most of us, the vast majority of us here, are just schlubs. Oil nerds. We may be experts in some field or another but darn few of us are what could even be remotely be called experts in the field of lubrication. So how do Haas' opinions carry any less weight that some other schlub here just because he's a plastic surgeon? If indeed he has a degree as a chemical engineer, that gives his opinions a little more weight than most of the rest of us schlubs.
Rip Dr. Haas opinions apart if you must... but on the facts. It's only right.
Totally wrong on taking 20-30 minutes to get to 180, but some cars won't even get the oil to 180 (A newer ZO6 Vette for example). My Evo 8 that makes 800HP with 20W50 will get the oil to it's operating temp in ~10 minutes.
"This is one reason I prefer thinner oils when possible as I may rev the engine to 9,000 RPM with "cold" oil in the sump (currently around 80F). And yes, the amount of wear per revolution is greater until the oil gets up to around 180F or hotter."
Now, is the increase in engine wear (Cyl bore wear in this case) greater because of the temperature of the oil OR the temperature of the engine block?
I would suggest the latter.
Agreed, more oil (a thinner oil) aimed in this area may reduce wear until the engine block is temperature saturated (a UCL may also help)
For engine bearings, I feel that an oil with a higher film strength (hot or cold) would perform better.
I would be interested to hear what Ferrari have to say about the Dr's oil choice?
Dr Haas first wrote his article in the form of a paper, that paper has been featured on the header page of this site.
Was the 'paper' ever subjected to Peer review?
I guess some people take it as an unquestioned FACT, and get bent out of shape.
Now, is the increase in engine wear (Cyl bore wear in this case) greater because of the temperature of the oil OR the temperature of the engine block?
I would suggest the latter.
Agreed, more oil (a thinner oil) aimed in this area may reduce wear until the engine block is temperature saturated (a UCL may also help)
For engine bearings, I feel that an oil with a higher film strength (hot or cold) would perform better.
I would be interested to hear what Ferrari have to say about the Dr's oil choice?
Dr Haas first wrote his article in the form of a paper, that paper has been featured on the header page of this site.
Was the 'paper' ever subjected to Peer review?
I guess some people take it as an unquestioned FACT, and get bent out of shape.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Interesting that my car takes less than 10 minutes to get to 180.
I really feel that statement should be qualified by engine design and application!
Agreed, I don't have a oil temp gauge on my Marauder, but going by oil pressure readings, it's oil also reaches oper temp in approx 10 minutes...
Really think about it, the oil is exposed to the same metal that heats the coolant, the oil isn't going to have a similar rise??? No doubt it will take some what longer as the lower extremes of the engine are below the water jackets, these areas are at least partially warmed by the hot oil flowing back from the head(s)... I suppose it could take a half hour, if there is a HUGE oil cooler installed...
Interesting that my car takes less than 10 minutes to get to 180.
I really feel that statement should be qualified by engine design and application!
Agreed, I don't have a oil temp gauge on my Marauder, but going by oil pressure readings, it's oil also reaches oper temp in approx 10 minutes...
Really think about it, the oil is exposed to the same metal that heats the coolant, the oil isn't going to have a similar rise??? No doubt it will take some what longer as the lower extremes of the engine are below the water jackets, these areas are at least partially warmed by the hot oil flowing back from the head(s)... I suppose it could take a half hour, if there is a HUGE oil cooler installed...
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Ken2 -
Wrist pins are splash lubricated, NOT by oil pump pressure.
Depends on the engine. Some are lubed by an oil passage drilled up the conn rod. I agree with you about small engines.
Ken2 -
Wrist pins are splash lubricated, NOT by oil pump pressure.
Depends on the engine. Some are lubed by an oil passage drilled up the conn rod. I agree with you about small engines.
Originally Posted By: expat
"This is one reason I prefer thinner oils when possible as I may rev the engine to 9,000 RPM with "cold" oil in the sump (currently around 80F). And yes, the amount of wear per revolution is greater until the oil gets up to around 180F or hotter."
Now, is the increase in engine wear (Cyl bore wear in this case) greater because of the temperature of the oil OR the temperature of the engine block?
I would suggest the latter.
Agreed, more oil (a thinner oil) aimed in this area may reduce wear until the engine block is temperature saturated (a UCL may also help)
For engine bearings, I feel that an oil with a higher film strength (hot or cold) would perform better.
I would be interested to hear what Ferrari have to say about the Dr's oil choice?
Dr Haas first wrote his article in the form of a paper, that paper has been featured on the header page of this site.
Was the 'paper' ever subjected to Peer review?
I guess some people take it as an unquestioned FACT, and get bent out of shape.
In all honesty the engine should be warmed up not because of the oil viscosity but beacause of the metal expansion.
In todays world being posted on the net or said by the talking heads on T.V. is all the peer review needed for 98.543% of the people!!!
"This is one reason I prefer thinner oils when possible as I may rev the engine to 9,000 RPM with "cold" oil in the sump (currently around 80F). And yes, the amount of wear per revolution is greater until the oil gets up to around 180F or hotter."
Now, is the increase in engine wear (Cyl bore wear in this case) greater because of the temperature of the oil OR the temperature of the engine block?
I would suggest the latter.
Agreed, more oil (a thinner oil) aimed in this area may reduce wear until the engine block is temperature saturated (a UCL may also help)
For engine bearings, I feel that an oil with a higher film strength (hot or cold) would perform better.
I would be interested to hear what Ferrari have to say about the Dr's oil choice?
Dr Haas first wrote his article in the form of a paper, that paper has been featured on the header page of this site.
Was the 'paper' ever subjected to Peer review?
I guess some people take it as an unquestioned FACT, and get bent out of shape.
In all honesty the engine should be warmed up not because of the oil viscosity but beacause of the metal expansion.
In todays world being posted on the net or said by the talking heads on T.V. is all the peer review needed for 98.543% of the people!!!
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Interesting that my car takes less than 10 minutes to get to 180.
I really feel that statement should be qualified by engine design and application!
Agreed, I don't have a oil temp gauge on my Marauder, but going by oil pressure readings, it's oil also reaches oper temp in approx 10 minutes...
Really think about it, the oil is exposed to the same metal that heats the coolant, the oil isn't going to have a similar rise??? No doubt it will take some what longer as the lower extremes of the engine are below the water jackets, these areas are at least partially warmed by the hot oil flowing back from the head(s)... I suppose it could take a half hour, if there is a HUGE oil cooler installed...
A large oil pan would also play a roll.
My Triumph Spitfire will take 15-20 minutes at 50mph to reach 80 degs oil temp.
Full Oil temp is not detectable by oil pressure readings alone.
Oil pressure will settle down quite quickly after start up. it's the last 40 degs that take time.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Interesting that my car takes less than 10 minutes to get to 180.
I really feel that statement should be qualified by engine design and application!
Agreed, I don't have a oil temp gauge on my Marauder, but going by oil pressure readings, it's oil also reaches oper temp in approx 10 minutes...
Really think about it, the oil is exposed to the same metal that heats the coolant, the oil isn't going to have a similar rise??? No doubt it will take some what longer as the lower extremes of the engine are below the water jackets, these areas are at least partially warmed by the hot oil flowing back from the head(s)... I suppose it could take a half hour, if there is a HUGE oil cooler installed...
A large oil pan would also play a roll.
My Triumph Spitfire will take 15-20 minutes at 50mph to reach 80 degs oil temp.
Full Oil temp is not detectable by oil pressure readings alone.
Oil pressure will settle down quite quickly after start up. it's the last 40 degs that take time.
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