Additives, Mobil 1, ILSAC, EPA, API, ACEA, EP/SS

[RavenTai]

Anti wear additives Mobil 1 & ILSAC, API, Acea, EP/SS.

As it is the oil I currently use I am trying to get a better grip on what is happening with the Mobil 1 line. I know a lot of this has been covered but not fully enough to answer my questions so please bear with me.

It seams that we did not talk much about ratings as the oils we used always exceeded those ratings, so what happens when a rating becomes a ceiling instead of just a minimum?

From what I have been reading here and else where there is concern among the OEM’s about poising of the catalytic converters by phosphorous and sulfur. (ZDDP) Considering the OEM’s have to warranty the cat much longer than the engine it is in their best interest to get this stuff out of oil, the EPA like cats so the EPA is also happy with this. So the OEM’s & EPA made the GF-4 spec through ILSAC an international body.

http://www.ilma.org/resources/gf4letter.pdf

I knew the 5w-30 recommendation with blessing of 10w-30 and no others in my owners manual was CAFÉ driven but had no idea how controlling the EPA was about it even specifying what the oil cap can say. Basically putting words in the OEM’s mouth.

A little out of date but very interesting:

http://www.northamericanlubricants.com/news/gf4specs.htm

quote:

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They were being designed to handle a number of issues but the driving factors were emission system protection and longevity as well as fuel economy.

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The results of this is XOM reduces the additives is Standard Mobil 1 SuperSyn when it went to API SM

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000275


The fuel efficiency gains although any is nice are too insignificant to mean anything to an individual consumer, I would take the gains if they were free but they are not.

Paying for a new cat for me is $1000. Avoiding this is nice but not at the expense of protecting a $5,000 engine that takes a lot more labor to fix or replace, I am also thinking this is only a problem in real oil burners witch is what you are more likely to have with less protection of the engine.


So from what I gather GF-4 and maybe SM are potentially not as good at protecting my engine as GF-3/SL and the only upside is vague protection improvements that took a back seat to the other 2? So these are to be avoided. This knocks out the Mobil 1 SS line.





Here is some interesting language from the Mobil web site

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Extended_Performance_FAQs.aspx#FAQs1

quote:

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What's the difference between Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 Extended Performance? Mobil 1 with SuperSyn technology exceeds the latest industry and OEM requirements. It is designed for vehicles under warranty and will provide protection for the maximum oil change interval recommended in your owner's manual or by your oil life sensor. Mobil 1 is designed for excellent low temperature and high temperature operation. It is designed to provide the maximum drain interval as recommended in your owner's manual. Mobil 1 Extended Performance is guaranteed to protect your engine for 15,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first

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So if your new 2005 car calls for the ILSAC GF-4 and/or API SM you get stuck with the weaker Mobil 1 or potentially loose your warranty.

If you were to just read the following cold it would just sound like more flowery marketing BS, after reading the EPA letter and the NAL article you can do some reading between the lines.

quote:

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Does the Mobil 1 Extended Performance meet GF-4 specifications? How did the new specification impact the development of the high-endurance product line? Mobil 1 Extended Performance contains extra performance additives to deliver exceptional performance and protection. This fully synthetic technology is designed specifically for longer service intervals. While it does not meet all the requirements for GF-4, it provides protection of the critical engine parts well beyond conventional engine oils including conventional GF-4 engine oils, and meets all the engine durability and protection requirements for GF-4. Additionally, Mobil 1 Extended Performance oils exceed the requirements of API SL/CF and various ACEA (European) specifications.

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So M1 EP is intentionally not compliant with the reduction in additives but does comply with the only good part of the GF-4 spec?


Looking at this

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000274

It appears it is so and has even more than in the older SL versions of M1 SS but this only shows 5w-30 and 10w-30. What about the other 2 EP’s?

The answer I have not been able to find is does API SM necessarily mean ILSAC GF-4, I am thinking yes in 20 and 30 wt’s but what about 40 and 50 wt’s?


Note there is a division in ratings between 5w-30/10w-30 and 10w-40/13w-50

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_Extended_Performance.asp


The first two meet ACEA A5 and the later A3, from what I understand the difference is simply HTHS viscosity >3.5 for the more protective A3 rating witch roughly follows viscosity, if so simple enough,

The odd ball is the API separation, the first two are SL makes sense seeing that they do not meet GF-4


But the later two are SM?

Can you have SM without GF-4? If so do they have a reduction in anti wear additives same as the standard M1 SS line?

I have not been able to find VOA’s of these two to confirm.

Why I am interested in this point is I drive a larger 4.5L I-6 Toyota engine in a relatively warm/hot climate. The Mobil 1 SS line is out due to weaker add pack leaves the new EP line

I have no interest in the 5w-30 and 10w-30 weights. (10.25 and 10.5 cst respectively) except for maybe 10w-30 mixed with 15w-50 for winter,

Although straight 15w-50 has worked in this engine with decent #’s in a UOA I think it is thicker than idea at 18 sct. That leaves the impossible to find Mobil 1 EP 10w-40 as my only Mobil 1, has a nice 14.2 cst operating viscosity.
Where do you get this stuff?

If you are still reading thanks, now where am I wrong?

 

[Ugly3]

Quite a write up.

I thought that 10.0 to 10.5 cst was ideal at operating temps so I would not be concerned.

As for the reduced add packs, my read is that the engine will only go 400,000 miles instead of 500,000 miles, no biggie.

 

[JHZR2]

Idont think that youre necessarily wrong, I think that perhaps youre not reasonable in so far as what is a vehicle's useful life, etc.

Many buy new vehicles, planning to drive the forever... they want to maximize longevity, keep it like new, etc. But, after tens to a hundred thousand miles, and 5-10 years, how many people ever actually keep up on their good hearted promises? I dont know your intentions, and can't say that you dont buy cars for the long run and drive them to 500k+ miles. But Im betting that youve never owner or even driven in a 500k mile car.

Now, think about how many folks use the cheapest lube oil and filter they can, and drive their car out to 100k miles or more. And still pass emissions, still get good mileage, and the cars still run decently. Now, think about how many have vehicles that have the oil changed on perfect schedule, drive easily, take good care of their engines, etc. What is common between the two types of vehicle owners? At some point, likely around the same period in time, they both will need to do some necessary costly repairs.

Using the cheapest stuff you could find, not even necessarily in the right viscosity, engines will still last a good long while. Using something a bit more tailor suited for the engine metallurgy, climate, etc., will yield better resuts. Just because oil specs have changed doesnt mean that newer oils are bad or worse than older ones. Changes in oil specs just pose a science and technology need to the oil manufacturers. It also poses a few engineering issues. But nothing that is too bad. It is well established that ZDDP was a relatively inexpensive additive, and though other better additives have come out, they have been avoided from use because of the cost savings of using ZDDP, which equal more profit. Now there is a cap, so new adds are used instead, tested, and designed to give the same if not better results. The cost gets puished to the consumer, but thats the cost of progress I guess.

At the end of the day, the presence of some additive, or of a number of additives is not the tell all on how great an oil is. There is more to it than that. Its very complex.

But its also as simple as "drive your car responsibly and do reasonable PM on it" and youll last a good long time. Regardless of oil chosen or anything else.

There is a lot of great info on this site. But we need to be sure to NOT extrapolate any of it out too far. At the end of the day, we should only let ourselves get led so far with the info here, and then its anybody's guess how to optimize from there. In reality, the only way to do it is to pick a smart choice oil, and then run it and do UOA, so that your choices can then be tailored to YOUR driving style, YOUR driving profile, YOUR climate, YOUR engine, and so on and so forth. Only one way to do the final optimization, and in some cases, the optimum may be exactly the same in International Falls, MN as it is in your neck of the woods, other times they may be WILDLY different.

JMH

P.S. Id be willing to bet that oil temperatures and conditions found in GA are about the same as they would be anywhere further north. I wouldnt consider GA to be as severe as the desert, extremely mountainous tropical climates, etc. I think many assume their climates to be more severe than they really are.

 

[RavenTai]

I am still looking for some info on the heavier weight (10w-40/15w-50) Mobil 1 EP’s,

What are the requirements of SM? Are they viscosity dependant?

Why are the heavy M1 EP’s SM but not GF-4?

The crux: Do the heavy weight M1 SM EP’s have an add pack like the weakened SM SS or higher add pack like the lighter weight SL EP oils?


As to the stuff you guys bring up.


I have heard several people state what an ideal operating viscosity is, some say 10 some say 12 and some 14. For many reasons I am going with 14 but that # is quite debatable.

quote:

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P.S. Id be willing to bet that oil temperatures and conditions found in GA are about the same as they would be anywhere further north. I wouldnt consider GA to be as severe as the desert, extremely mountainous tropical climates, etc. I think many assume their climates to be more severe than they really are.

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Maybe, maybe not, But my choice of a 40wt is not arbitrary.

In my US owners manual only 5w-30 and 10w-30 are allowed with the 5w-30 being the “recommended” viscosity, after reading that EPA letter (see the later pages) that exact language was not written by anybody at Toyota or even anyone in Japan but a bureaucrat in Washington who had likely never even heard of the engine used in my cruiser.

Fortunately this engine is made in Japan and sold in many other countries where you get a viscosity chart written by somebody at Toyota who we would hope put some thought in it, in every other country the 5w-30 is not to be used in temperatures above 50 degrees Fahrenheit. that is a pretty serios discrepancy,
The rest

(1FZ-FE)
20W/50 19.4 to 100.4
15W/40 9.5 to 100.4
10W/30 0.4 to 100.4
5W/30 -20.2 to 50

Another chart from a different year slight differences but similar.

1fzfe motor
20w50 19 f to 100 f
15w40 14 f to 100 f
10w30 0 to 100 f
5w30 -22 f to 46 f

And another for the3FE that came before the 1FZ-FE, slight changes but very similar.

http://forum.ih8mud.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17493&stc=1


A 20w-50 can be used year round but close to minimum in the winter. And probably thicker than ideal all except summer

10w-40 could be used year round probably the sweet spot.

10w-30 can be used year round, but probably thinner than ideal in all except winter, especially a M1 30wt.

Another possibility is using 10w-30 in the winter and 15w-50 in the summer but that requires timing oil changes based on weather.

quote:

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Just because oil specs have changed doesnt mean that newer oils are bad or worse than older ones. Changes in oil specs just pose a science and technology need to the oil manufacturers. It also poses a few engineering issues. But nothing that is too bad. It is well established that ZDDP was a relatively inexpensive additive, and though other better additives have come out, they have been avoided from use because of the cost savings of using ZDDP, which equal more profit. Now there is a cap, so new adds are used instead, tested, and designed to give the same if not better results. The cost gets puished to the consumer, but thats the cost of progress I guess.

At the end of the day, the presence of some additive, or of a number of additives is not the tell all on how great an oil is. There is more to it than that. Its very complex.

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From the VOA’s on the GF-4/SM M1 SS oils it does not appear they have decreased just ZDDP but have brought the entire additive level down with no increase in the newer style additives like calcium and boron but a decrease, a VOA does not tell the whole story but until we can find something more specific that is the best we have to go on.

Yes it is complicated and Additives do cost money but the fact that Mobil chose a higher level before it was limited under GF-4/SM and continues to spend this money and more in the SL EP oils shows they must think they are useful.

EP costs about the same as SS if in fact one is better why not be an educated consumer buy the better of the two?

An example where an appropriate amount of antiwar additives may help me out before 400 or 500K is valve train wear. At 115K or so I checked my valve clearance (DOHC engine) found most of them to be at the top of the allowed range and one .001” over the allowed range. To fix this I need to remove the came measure the shims, put it back together and order new shims, shims list for $11 each and I could need as many as 24 worst case if I cannot swap some around. After getting new shims the cams have to be removed again and new shims installed.

The less often I have to do this the better.

As for the ultimate life of the engine I think you guys are overstating it with 400k and 500K life expectancies, some may make that but that is best case, and most that do see that mileage will not be healthy when they get there.

Before you guys debate the stuff in the second half of this post if possible I would really like to get any info available on the questions at the top. I believe they are good basic things to know.
since this is a long post I will repaet them.

What are the requirements of SM? Are they viscosity dependant?

Why are the heavy M1 EP’s SM but not GF-4?

The crux: Do the heavy weight M1 SM EP’s have an add pack like the weakened SM SS or higher add pack like the lighter weight SL EP oils?

Thanks
Raven

 

[wileyE]

If the valves are wearing tight you might consider some fuel additive (lube). If they get loose, a few thous isn't a problem, better loose than tight. How about hdeo oil for ya? no weak addpack worries there?

 

[bruce381]

RavenTai you have a pretty good understanding about the new spec's but it is very confusing there are to many auto and goverment groups sticking noses in.

Do not understand exactly what do you need to know in 1 sentence or less.

SM will have lower ZDDP to extend cat life and will also have a lower Nowack voilitity.

I would stock up on SL that will be the last "robust" oil as far a ZDDP goes and the "jury" is still out on some of the newer FM additives used to boost the performance due to the lower ZDDP. They may offer great protection from wear but oxidation life, sludge and thermal breakdown may pop up.

It is pretty much a given that only GPII or better basestocks will pass all requirements.
SM is API rating, GF-4 is ILSAC rating and ACEA all are similar and have slighly different pass requirements. In my mind the differences are all minor and would have no effect in the real world.

Bruce

 

[Ugly3]

RavenTai - In my US owners manual only 5w-30 and 10w-30 are allowed with the 5w-30 being the “recommended” viscosity, after reading that EPA letter (see the later pages) that exact language was not written by anybody at Toyota or even anyone in Japan but a bureaucrat in Washington who had likely never even heard of the engine used in my cruiser.

Fortunately this engine is made in Japan and sold in many other countries where you get a viscosity chart written by somebody at Toyota who we would hope put some thought in it, in every other country the 5w-30 is not to be used in temperatures above 50 degrees Fahrenheit. that is a pretty serios discrepancy,
The rest

(1FZ-FE)
20W/50 19.4 to 100.4
15W/40 9.5 to 100.4
10W/30 0.4 to 100.4
5W/30 -20.2 to 50

Another chart from a different year slight differences but similar.

1fzfe motor
20w50 19 f to 100 f
15w40 14 f to 100 f
10w30 0 to 100 f
5w30 -22 f to 46 f

If they allow 10w30 to 100F and 5w30 to only 46F to 50F it demonstrates Toyota does not understand motor oils.

 

[Hirev]

quote:

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Why are the heavy M1 EP’s SM but not GF-4?

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I'm looking at a bottle of Mobil 1 Ep 10w 40 it states API SL.

From Chevron;
"Why does fuel economy affect the base oil blend?
Fuel Economy is measured by an engine test, the Sequence VIB. In order to pass this test, blenders may need to go to lower viscosity base oil blends, but still must meet the volatility limit of less than 15 Noack. In general, this requires a higher VI base oil blend.

Why do emission regulations impact lubricants?
There is no engine test that measures emission system stability, but the OEM's have data showing that sulfur and phosphorus are poisons for catalytic converters and must be limited. Thus, in GF-4 oils sulfur is limited to 0.5%, maximum, in 0W- and 5W- engine oils and 0.7%, maximum in 10W- engine oils. Phosphorus is limited to 0.08%. This restricts the amount of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, the workhorse anti-oxidant and anti-wear agent, which can be used in engine oils, which in turn, may restrict the amount of Group I oil in GF-4 blends."

 

[RavenTai]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hirev:
I'm looking at a bottle of Mobil 1 Ep 10w 40 it states API SL.

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Now that is interesting on the Mobil 1 EP tech sheet it states " API SM,SL,SJ,SH/CF" for 10w-40 and 15w-50, and “API SL,SJ,SH/CF” for 5w-30 and 10w-30

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_Extended_Performance.asp

But as you say the bottle states otherwise, I would normally chalk that up to the sheet being out of date but both M1 EP and API SM are brand new,

Following that second Chevron paragraph it talks about reducing sulfur and phosphorus in ILSAC GF-4 , the sulfur restriction goes by the first weight (0w,5w,10w) I am not aware of what sulfur is used for an engine oil, AFAIK it is a contaminant.

From that Text looks like phosphorous (ZDDP) is restricted across in all weights

That is for ILSAC GF-4, were these same restrictions passed on unchanged into API SM? Or did the API not put restriction on 40 and 50 weights? If so that would explain why XOM is calling their 10w-40 and 15w-50 EP SM at least on the web site.

Next time I am in Wally World I will have to look at the 15w-50 EP and see if it is marked SL or SM, unfortunately I have not been able to find 10w-40 bottle to even look at much less buy.

quote:

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Originally posted by wileyE:
If the valves are wearing tight you might consider some fuel additive (lube). If they get loose, a few thous isn't a problem, better loose than tight. How about hdeo oil for ya? no weak addpack worries there?

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They are wearing loose, no problems out at the seat, wear is in the oiled area, yes only .006” of wear but is out of spec on one valve and should be looked after to reduce future cam lobe wear, I tried Delvac 1 for 2 OCI’s with a UOA on the second, results were not pretty high lead & tin, it was likely something besides the oil but I am hesitant to try it again in case my motor just don’t like it

I am hoping the M1 EP 10w-40 will have a heavy duty add pack and will be what I am looking for

quote:

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Originally posted by bruce381:
RavenTai you have a pretty good understanding about the new spec's but it is very confusing there are to many auto and goverment groups sticking noses in.

Do not understand exactly what do you need to know in 1 sentence or less.

SM will have lower ZDDP to extend cat life and will also have a lower Nowack voilitity.

I would stock up on SL that will be the last "robust" oil as far a ZDDP goes and the "jury" is still out on some of the newer FM additives used to boost the performance due to the lower ZDDP. They may offer great protection from wear but oxidation life, sludge and thermal breakdown may pop up.

It is pretty much a given that only GPII or better basestocks will pass all requirements.
SM is API rating, GF-4 is ILSAC rating and ACEA all are similar and have slightly different pass requirements. In my mind the differences are all minor and would have no effect in the real world.

Bruce

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Good info Bruce, weather you understand my question or not you are in the right area.

The new spec’s are only suppose to affect ZDDP but from the VOA on API SM 0w-40 SS Mobil dropped additives across the board? I am hoping that I will not have to stock up on SL because the EP line will be robust with the old stuff (ZDDP) and maybe some of the new also?

Looks like dino oils will be getting a base stock upgrade,

Not familiar with FM additives, friction modifiers? Now I have something to look up.


In the past like you I have not paid much attention to ratings, the oil I was using was well above those minimums, but now we are seeing maximums and I do not like the way Mobil has dealt with these new maximums. Weather it turns out to be minor or nor remains to be seen.

If I were to try to put it in one sentence,

Got any info on what the add pack is going to be like in the heavier M1 EP?

quote:

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Originally posted by Ugly3:
Toyota does not understand motor oils.

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Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

If you don’t like the gas specs look at the turbo diesel specs on the linked scanned image, 5w-30 is not to be used above 32 F and 10w-30 up to 100 but no more.

There are significant differences in some oil lines between 5w-30 and 10w-30 “30” does not always mean “30” like it would lead you to believe.

I am sure the chart was written with the crappiest oil in mind, some poor 5wt base stock that was doped with large amounts of VI improvers to get it into a 30 wt range at operating temperature. Shear it down and you are left with something much less than a 30 wt.

 

[Ugly3]

That is why there are API certifications for motor oils.

 

[bulwnkl]

Beat me to it, Ugly3.

quote:

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Originally posted by RavenTai:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ugly3:
Toyota does not understand motor oils.

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Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

If you don’t like the gas specs look at the turbo diesel specs on the linked scanned image, 5w-30 is not to be used above 32 F and 10w-30 up to 100 but no more.

There are significant differences in some oil lines between 5w-30 and 10w-30 “30” does not always mean “30” like it would lead you to believe.

I am sure the chart was written with the crappiest oil in mind...

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You know, I think you're right. I also think that's a problem that is very nearly (if not totally) absent in the USA and Canada. I further think this whole concept is at the heart of the different recommendations made by the Euro companies and the different recommendations made by most companies here vs. outside of NA.

Toyota's overseas 5W30 vs. 10W30 temperature recommendations above are completely ridiculous for the North American market given the oils made and marketed here.

 

[RavenTai]

Went to Pep Boys today. only M1 EP they had has 15w-50 and like Hirev said is was marked API SL not SM so as long as the bottles remain marked SL it becomes unimportant to me how GF-4 and SM relate, I will be using GF-3 and SL.


Next hurdle is finding M1 EP 10w-40 for sale.

Ugly3, it is pretty obvious you like thin oil, that’s good if it works for you, it can work quite well in the right engine and conditions But IMO (with above supporting documentation and past UOA's ) thin oil is not right for this application. And I'll leave it at that.

 

[bruce381]

The new SM DI Packages will have a lower ZDDP max 800ppm and possibley less CA sulfonates to further reduce sulfur at use level with a higher amount of FM in the form of Ester's, Moly, Antimony, PAO/polymer,Fatty compounds etc and various new Friction modifiers that will be proprietary from the majors additive suppliers all with engine test stand data showing full pass in the latest spec SM and beyond. If it worries you "race" only oils will always be here with a full blown 1% ZDDP in them it may be that the furture will be adding in some ZDDP additve to a base SM oil to make some people happy but it will be do able.
bruce

 

[David in Sugar Land]

quote:

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Originally posted by RavenTai:
Went to Pep Boys today. only M1 EP they had has 15w-50 and like Hirev said is was marked API SL not SM

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Same stock in Houston...