Adding PAG 46 after a condenser change

[pbm]

My daughter had an accident with her 2008 Elantra which took out the hood, bumper, condenser and radiator.
She had dropped collision insurance due to cost for her age and the 110K on the car. Even though the accident was not her fault she got nothing from the other guys insurance because of an arcane law in NC called 'Strict Contributory Liability' which means that if they find you as little as 1% at fault...you get nothing....and 'they' is the other guys insurance company so you know how that went....

Anyway, I drove it back from NC without issue even though the fan was jammed and the AC dead....the bent radiator had a very slight leak which a can of Barsleaks took care of for the 700 mile trip.

I was able to find a used hood and bumper and bought a new condenser and radiator and I'm in the process of getting her back on the road.

My question is....how do I make up for the PAG 46 that was lost when the Freon escaped? If I decide to have a shop recharge it...does their equipment measure compressor oil?

Thanks in advance

 

[mk378]

Check service manual for the amount. Buy PAG in a non-pressurized metal can. Just before making up the last connection with the new parts, open the can and measure out the oil and pour it into one of the lines, then close up the connection. Take car to a shop to have system evacuated and charged.

 

[Chris142]

Pour it in a line or suck it in with vacuum.

 

[nthach]

PAG is hydroscopic stuff, you should have a vacuum pump and gauges on hand to draw a vacuum or plan on getting the AC professionally evaced and charged ASAP if you're adding oil to an open system.

Asian AC systems call for 3-5oz of oil, or 90-150cc/mL, and there will be an amount specified to add back into the system for repairs, usually between 20-50cc/mL of oil. Since the new condenser will more than likely have an integrated receiver/drier I think adding in an ounce of oil and replacing the filter sock will get you close. AC systems are sensitive to oil fill - you don't want too little, or the compressor will seize. Too much and the AC system won't cool down as well.

If you can, find a way to get a hold of Hyundai's service literature. If not, add an ounce of PAG oil, close up the system and get a evac/recharge done ASAP. Tell the shop you added oil and they can add more via injection if it's not enough.

 

[pbm]

Thanks guys....

nthach:
I was thinking of doing exactly what you said....I wasn't sure if adding the ounce of oil directly into the condenser would be OK.....I'm assuming the shop's equipment will know the amount of PAG in the system...

 

[mk378]

The only way to know how much oil there is is to take the system apart, flush out all the parts, and start over from empty. This is why it is important not to add too much.

 

[gamefoo21]

Originally Posted by nthach
PAG is hydroscopic stuff, you should have a vacuum pump and gauges on hand to draw a vacuum or plan on getting the AC professionally evaced and charged ASAP if you're adding oil to an open system.

Asian AC systems call for 3-5oz of oil, or 90-150cc/mL, and there will be an amount specified to add back into the system for repairs, usually between 20-50cc/mL of oil. Since the new condenser will more than likely have an integrated receiver/drier I think adding in an ounce of oil and replacing the filter sock will get you close. AC systems are sensitive to oil fill - you don't want too little, or the compressor will seize. Too much and the AC system won't cool down as well.

If you can, find a way to get a hold of Hyundai's service literature. If not, add an ounce of PAG oil, close up the system and get a evac/recharge done ASAP. Tell the shop you added oil and they can add more via injection if it's not enough.


You can get double end capped PAG that's pretty resistant to water but it is more expensive than normal PAG.

If efficiency is king then PAG is probably king. PAO can go low too like PAG, but I'm not convinced that PAO is all that because it doesn't seem to cling to metal very well.

Ester is probably the best but it seems to only come in ISO100 and I think I've seen it in 150. Ester is probably the best for wear, it also helps keep the rubber seals in the system happy, and it will absorb small amounts of water. Nifty side benefit is that when the Ester bonds to water, it becomes a very slippery lube.

Generally speaking in the system, the two main components that hold the most oil, are the dryer/filter and the compressor.

If opening the system to replace the condenser, even if you've had it evaced, and it holds vacuum, you should replace the dryer and seals.

Please do not just vent R12 or R134a to atmosphere, they are both toxic and really hard on atmosphere. Have the system evacuated professionally first.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted by gamefoo21


You can get double end capped PAG that's pretty resistant to water but it is more expensive than normal PAG.

If efficiency is king then PAG is probably king. PAO can go low too like PAG, but I'm not convinced that PAO is all that because it doesn't seem to cling to metal very well.

Ester is probably the best but it seems to only come in ISO100 and I think I've seen it in 150. Ester is probably the best for wear, it also helps keep the rubber seals in the system happy, and it will absorb small amounts of water. Nifty side benefit is that when the Ester bonds to water, it becomes a very slippery lube.


If opening the system to replace the condenser, even if you've had it evaced, and it holds vacuum, you should replace the dryer and seals.

Please do not just vent R12 or R134a to atmosphere, they are both toxic and really hard on atmosphere. Have the system evacuated professionally first.


Idemitsu makes DEC PAG for most of the OEMs, Ford sells it at a reasonable price under the Motorcraft label and Worldpac stocks the full line up. The weird part is that Idemitsu makes two PAG 46s, one for Denso compressors and one for Ford/Hyundai compressors. I say they are close to each other and can be used safely.

The automakers decided to go with PAG oils, commercial HVAC/R and transport(bus/train) HVAC decided to go with POE oils. Hella-Behr has been using PAO oil but Denso in Europe warns against them for compatibility and durablity concerns. Electric compressors used in xEVs call for POE oil, ND-Oil 11 which is a $200/230mL part from Toyota or Mopar.

Agreed on both - it's just a good idea to keep that ish out of the environment and water in the refrigerant loop can cause issues, poor cooling/blockage and since the lubricants are hygroscopic as well. R134a/R12 can interact with water to form hydrofluoric acid/hydrogen fluoride which are both corrosive and poisonous.

 

[gamefoo21]

The two different PAG46s might be because I believe Ford/Hyundai have UV dye standard. Denso aka Japanese makes don't carry the UV dye from the factory. At least the parents Hyundai had dye in it. Unless they are DEC vs SEC.

If the costs between SEC and DEC are close, I would recommend and myself buy DEC PAG everytime. It's simply better. Just like a new Drier/filter and seals, are cheap insurance, both are used up over time.

All PAG is great cutting fluid though, so it has it's purposes.

I honestly prefer POE though for my own purposes, but I have used DEC PAG. I love my POE compressor assembly lube. That's some scary expensive oil that ND-11... yikes.

I remember reading up about why the automakers went PAG with the switch over to R134a. I don't remember exactly why but it was kinda dumb.

It always amazes me how many people just blow off the gas rather than spending $20-30 to get it sucked out first.

I also read that PAO doesn't mix into most coolants very well, ends up piling up at low points and moves around the system in lumps. So maybe that's why Denso recommends against them.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted by gamefoo21


I also read that PAO doesn't mix into most coolants very well, ends up piling up at low points and moves around the system in lumps. So maybe that's why Denso recommends against them.

https://www.tokic.hr/TehnickeInform...Lubrication%20-%20PAG%20PAO%20mixing.pdf
https://www.denso-am.eu/products/au...ressors/practical-tip-on-compressor-oil/

While Hella-Behr push it, the system parts suppliers don't like it. PAOs don't have the same polar attraction to metal as PAG and POE does.

 

[gamefoo21]

Originally Posted by nthach
Originally Posted by gamefoo21


I also read that PAO doesn't mix into most coolants very well, ends up piling up at low points and moves around the system in lumps. So maybe that's why Denso recommends against them.

https://www.tokic.hr/TehnickeInform...Lubrication%20-%20PAG%20PAO%20mixing.pdf
https://www.denso-am.eu/products/au...ressors/practical-tip-on-compressor-oil/

While Hella-Behr push it, the system parts suppliers don't like it. PAOs don't have the same polar attraction to metal as PAG and POE does.



Ahh so it was my original reason for not being keen on PAO compressor lube.

Let it sit too long, and there's no oil film protecting preventing surfaces hitting each other. In some parts of Europe you can go for long stretches without using the AC.