ADBV needed if filter is vertical?

[endeavor to persevere]

Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
Originally Posted By: endeavor to persevere
An example is on my GMC Sierra truck. After the up-right filter is removed seems like a half quart runs out. If the filter did not have an ADBV, that oil held in the passages would have to be replaced at start up each time.


The filter's ADBV is not what's keeping oil above the filter. The valve is there to keep oil from flowing back out of the filter, not the engine!


Thats not what the engineer at Wix filter told me, and I would think he would know how his filters functions. You think maybe he didn't know what he was talking about. I don't know. I have never worked for a filter manufacturer.

It make since to me that any valve thats keeps oil from draining out of the filter also will keep the oil in the passages above the filter because it cant go any where if the oil is captured in the filter. If no valve is present to keep the oil in the filter then there is nothing to keep the oil from draining out of the passages and in to the filter and back into the pan. Thr oil is pumped through the valve under pressure. There is no prussure just sitting there.

 

[endeavor to persevere]

Anti-Drainback Valve. Some oil filter mountings may allow oil to drain out of the filter through the oil pump when the engine is stopped. When the engine is next started, oil must refill the filter before full oil pressure reaches the engine. The anti-drainback valve, included in the filter when required, prevents oil from draining out of the filter. This anti-drainback valve is actually a rubber flap that covers the inside of the inlet holes of the filter. When the oil pump starts pumping oil, the pressure will unseat the flap. The purpose of this valve is to keep the oil filter filled at all times, so when the engine is started there will be an almost instantaneous supply of oil to the engine.

Anything that keeps the oil in the filter will also keep the passages from draining above the filter.

 

[Sayjac]

Not to be argumentative, but it makes no sense to me. In a thread up verticle mount filter, with gravity the oil will sit on the inlet side of the oil filter with or without an adbv.

I don't see how the oil can/will flow against gravity, unless it is pumped/pushed out.

Why do some apps not require an adbv? Don't think an adbv would hurt but I' don't see a major benefit in verticle thread up apps.

 

[Bottom_Feeder]

Maybe we're all looking at this two different ways.

To the people who are saying the ADBV is needed to keep oil up in the engine passages, are you talking about oil that has already been through the filter and is on it's way to it's next destination? I can see that if the 'backwash' wants to push it's way back through the filter, then yes, the ADBV would slow it down considerably if not stop it.

In my post above, I'm going on the assumption that the oil up in the engine is being returned down to the filter. In that case, the ADBV will do nothing.

I guess it depends on the engine's design and how you're visualizing the oil's path through it.

 

[labman]

Actually there are engines with ADBV's built in, the Ecotec in my Cavalier for instance. When you remove the cap, it pulls the little tip with the O-ring on the bottom of the cartridge out of its socket allowing the oil in the filter to drain reducing the mess. However, that is a side issue to this thread.

Not all engines are well designed. Even a thread end up filter without a ADBV will allow oil from the passageways above it to run back into the exit, through the media, and out the inlet holes and down to the pan through the pump.

I have never taken many oil pumps apart. I am thinking some of them have check valves in them that would keep the oil from running back out ABDV or none.

What I don't understand is how air gets out of dome end up filters. Shouldn't it just compress under pressure and remain as a bubble at the highest point? Then when the engine shuts down, expand and force the oil up through the oil passages and out through the bearings?

As for keeping the oil in the passageways with the engine off, shouldn't it flow down and out through the lowest bearings?

 

[endeavor to persevere]

OK I called Champion Labs and asked them about this. I used my truck with the 5.3 and a threads up application as an example. They told me yes I need the ADBV and yes the valve aids in holding the oil in the passages. The engineer from Wix Filters had already told me this but I wanted a second opinion.

You guys can do what you want to. I will be using a filter with an ADBV.

 

[DieselTech]

6.0 powerstrokes have a ADBV built into the filter base. This is the reason it's VERY important to use OEM filters and not aftermarket. many aftermarket filters are 2 short and the ADBV will remain partially open allowing oil to drain back

 

[labman]

Originally Posted By: endeavor to persevere
OK I called Champion Labs and asked them about this. I used my truck with the 5.3 and a threads up application as an example. They told me yes I need the ADBV and yes the valve aids in holding the oil in the passages. The engineer from Wix Filters had already told me this but I wanted a second opinion.

You guys can do what you want to. I will be using a filter with an ADBV.


+1 As indicated in my last post, there are some unanswered questions. For now, I will stick to ones with an ABDV.

 

[gmctodd]

Originally Posted By: endeavor to persevere
OK I called Champion Labs and asked them about this. I used my truck with the 5.3 and a threads up application as an example. They told me yes I need the ADBV and yes the valve aids in holding the oil in the passages. The engineer from Wix Filters had already told me this but I wanted a second opinion.
You guys can do what you want to. I will be using a filter with an ADBV.


I take it you are C&Asdad on the GmTruck site!

 

[chevrofreak]

When the oil enters the oil filter, it pushes the ADBV away from the base and flows around it to the outside of the filter media, through the filter media, then through the center hole. From there it travels many places in the engine, such as bearings, valve lifters, and in many cases hydraulic timing chain tensioners.

When the engine is shut down, the pump stops, and the oil that is up inside of the engine above the oil filter is pulled downward by gravity. With no pressure on the inlet side of the filter, the ADBV springs back into place naturally, but is also aided by the weight of the oil inside of the oil passages attempting to travel backwards by gravity. It puts pressure on the opposite side of the ADBV from it when it entered from the pump, which aids in sealing the ADBV. If you have no ADBV or one that does not rebound or seal well, the oil will flow back through the oil filter and the oil pump. The oil will have to refill the passages inside of the engine upon the next startup. In the case of an engine with overhead cams and timing chains, the lash adjuster has released the tension on the chain, and they will often make a horrible rattling sound until the oil has filled the empty passages and once again put pressure on the chain tensioners.

Even if your engine is not OHC, that extra few seconds of low or no oil pressure can accelerate wear on bearing surfaces.

 

[endeavor to persevere]

Originally Posted By: gmctodd
Originally Posted By: endeavor to persevere
OK I called Champion Labs and asked them about this. I used my truck with the 5.3 and a threads up application as an example. They told me yes I need the ADBV and yes the valve aids in holding the oil in the passages. The engineer from Wix Filters had already told me this but I wanted a second opinion.
You guys can do what you want to. I will be using a filter with an ADBV.


I take it you are C&Asdad on the GmTruck site!


C&Asdad is no longer with us. He was killed in a tree cutting accident over a year ago. A limb fell on him.

He managed a Carquest and did ask that question to wix Filter Co.

Before then I worked for one of the largest automotive parts distributers in the world. I also asked that question to a Wix engineer and got the same answer. Somes times I use his quote to save typing. I am now retired.

 

[gmctodd]

Yes, After searching futher I discovered that. I was just curious.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
When the oil enters the oil filter, it pushes the ADBV away from the base and flows around it to the outside of the filter media, through the filter media, then through the center hole. From there it travels many places in the engine, such as bearings, valve lifters, and in many cases hydraulic timing chain tensioners.

When the engine is shut down, the pump stops, and the oil that is up inside of the engine above the oil filter is pulled downward by gravity. With no pressure on the inlet side of the filter, the ADBV springs back into place naturally, but is also aided by the weight of the oil inside of the oil passages attempting to travel backwards by gravity. It puts pressure on the opposite side of the ADBV from it when it entered from the pump, which aids in sealing the ADBV. If you have no ADBV or one that does not rebound or seal well, the oil will flow back through the oil filter and the oil pump. The oil will have to refill the passages inside of the engine upon the next startup. In the case of an engine with overhead cams and timing chains, the lash adjuster has released the tension on the chain, and they will often make a horrible rattling sound until the oil has filled the empty passages and once again put pressure on the chain tensioners.

Even if your engine is not OHC, that extra few seconds of low or no oil pressure can accelerate wear on bearing surfaces.
That's a great explanation of how the adbv works, which I understand. However, if a filter application is in a verticle thread up position(excluding engines w/ internal adbv), is an adbv essential? Clearly the oil in the filter can't drain back with gravity.

The only benefit I could see, would be that if there was an adbv then perhaps when the pump pressure stopped, the valve closed, a slight vacuum might keep the oil in the passages from flowing back out of the passages.

Similar to a straw with liquid in it being held closed at one end.

fwiw, all my apps have adbv's, but none sit verticle. IIRC Puro makes some specific apps without adbv's because SuperBusa has posted one before. Maybe it was an engine with an internal adbv, as mentioned before. Are there some others similar to the Suby where an adbv is not required/speced?

 

[Kaboomba]

The ADBV functions the same way and has the same response to the direction of oil flow regardless of its orientation. If there is oil in the engine which is held up higher than the ADBV, the ADBV will hold it up (if it's a theoretically perfect ADBV--reality is that it's a little stiff, so the oil really needs to be higher than the highest point of the filter, in general).

K

 

[Bruce T]

If the anti-drainback valve holds up a column of oil above the filter, it could be effective for brief periods. But I think the way most ADBVs are essentially low-quality valves, overnight the column of oil would slowly drain back down into the sump. I would have to question how well it seals in most oil filters. As sayjac says, it's possible if there was a vacuum above it.

 

[labman]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
However, if a filter application is in a verticle thread up position(excluding engines w/ internal adbv), is an adbv essential? Clearly the oil in the filter can't drain back with gravity.


Maybe. If it is a good tight system, the column of oil between it and the pump could pull it out in a siphon.

 

[Sayjac]

I suppose it's possible, but that would be real stretch to pull(siphon), in any significant amount oil out of the inlet side filter in a verticle mount, IMO.

I like my thought that the adbv might be able hold the oil in with passages longer with an adbv.

I still haven't gotten an answer to the question of why some apps don't have/spec adbv's. I presume they are verticle thread up mounts.

In any case, the majority have adbv's, so it's not an issue for the majority.

 

[chevrofreak]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
When the oil enters the oil filter, it pushes the ADBV away from the base and flows around it to the outside of the filter media, through the filter media, then through the center hole. From there it travels many places in the engine, such as bearings, valve lifters, and in many cases hydraulic timing chain tensioners.

When the engine is shut down, the pump stops, and the oil that is up inside of the engine above the oil filter is pulled downward by gravity. With no pressure on the inlet side of the filter, the ADBV springs back into place naturally, but is also aided by the weight of the oil inside of the oil passages attempting to travel backwards by gravity. It puts pressure on the opposite side of the ADBV from it when it entered from the pump, which aids in sealing the ADBV. If you have no ADBV or one that does not rebound or seal well, the oil will flow back through the oil filter and the oil pump. The oil will have to refill the passages inside of the engine upon the next startup. In the case of an engine with overhead cams and timing chains, the lash adjuster has released the tension on the chain, and they will often make a horrible rattling sound until the oil has filled the empty passages and once again put pressure on the chain tensioners.

Even if your engine is not OHC, that extra few seconds of low or no oil pressure can accelerate wear on bearing surfaces.
That's a great explanation of how the adbv works, which I understand. However, if a filter application is in a verticle thread up position(excluding engines w/ internal adbv), is an adbv essential? Clearly the oil in the filter can't drain back with gravity.

The only benefit I could see, would be that if there was an adbv then perhaps when the pump pressure stopped, the valve closed, a slight vacuum might keep the oil in the passages from flowing back out of the passages.

Similar to a straw with liquid in it being held closed at one end.

fwiw, all my apps have adbv's, but none sit verticle. IIRC Puro makes some specific apps without adbv's because SuperBusa has posted one before. Maybe it was an engine with an internal adbv, as mentioned before. Are there some others similar to the Suby where an adbv is not required/speced?


Due to the siphon effect, it is possible that the oil flowing backwards out of the filter will leave the filter at least somewhat empty. The siphon would continue until air managed to be sucked through the media. I would guess that the filter could potentially be half empty by the time everything is said and done. With the Subaru's that mount the filter very low, there wouldn't be as much siphon pressure as there would be with a filter that is mounted higher above the oil level.

Ever notice how difficult it is to drain a used oil filter? You usually have to break the seal that the ADBV has created before the oil will flow out. That same sealing could allow the siphon effect to empty a good deal of the oil out of the filter, even if oriented vertically.

 

[Soobs]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa

If Purolator shows your car in the table linked below, then I'd use it. Purolator wouldn't specify the PL14460 without an ADBV if they know it didn't work without issue.

http://www.purolatorautofilters.net/reso...4460&page=1


Hasn't Subaru of America always used ADBVs in their OEM oil filters? The Tokyo Roki, Purolator, and now Honeywell OEM filters all have ADBV. I'm sure you can get by with the Purolator 14460. I'm sure it's "compatible" and approved, like Purolator says, but do we even know what the definition of "compatible" is for aftermarket vendors? Perhaps the ADBV in those listed vehicle models isn't required, but recommended by Subaru. Just a speculation...

If you're worrying about it just buy the OEM oil filter and it'll be fine.

 

[labman]

Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
When the oil enters the oil filter, it pushes the ADBV away from the base and flows around it to the outside of the filter media, through the filter media, then through the center hole. From there it travels many places in the engine, such as bearings, valve lifters, and in many cases hydraulic timing chain tensioners.

When the engine is shut down, the pump stops, and the oil that is up inside of the engine above the oil filter is pulled downward by gravity. With no pressure on the inlet side of the filter, the ADBV springs back into place naturally, but is also aided by the weight of the oil inside of the oil passages attempting to travel backwards by gravity. It puts pressure on the opposite side of the ADBV from it when it entered from the pump, which aids in sealing the ADBV. If you have no ADBV or one that does not rebound or seal well, the oil will flow back through the oil filter and the oil pump. The oil will have to refill the passages inside of the engine upon the next startup. In the case of an engine with overhead cams and timing chains, the lash adjuster has released the tension on the chain, and they will often make a horrible rattling sound until the oil has filled the empty passages and once again put pressure on the chain tensioners.

Even if your engine is not OHC, that extra few seconds of low or no oil pressure can accelerate wear on bearing surfaces.
That's a great explanation of how the adbv works, which I understand. However, if a filter application is in a verticle thread up position(excluding engines w/ internal adbv), is an adbv essential? Clearly the oil in the filter can't drain back with gravity.

The only benefit I could see, would be that if there was an adbv then perhaps when the pump pressure stopped, the valve closed, a slight vacuum might keep the oil in the passages from flowing back out of the passages.

Similar to a straw with liquid in it being held closed at one end.

fwiw, all my apps have adbv's, but none sit verticle. IIRC Puro makes some specific apps without adbv's because SuperBusa has posted one before. Maybe it was an engine with an internal adbv, as mentioned before. Are there some others similar to the Suby where an adbv is not required/speced?


Due to the siphon effect, it is possible that the oil flowing backwards out of the filter will leave the filter at least somewhat empty. The siphon would continue until air managed to be sucked through the media. I would guess that the filter could potentially be half empty by the time everything is said and done. With the Subaru's that mount the filter very low, there wouldn't be as much siphon pressure as there would be with a filter that is mounted higher above the oil level.

Ever notice how difficult it is to drain a used oil filter? You usually have to break the seal that the ADBV has created before the oil will flow out. That same sealing could allow the siphon effect to empty a good deal of the oil out of the filter, even if oriented vertically.


My bad on this. Thinking some more of this, I have seen siphons do some unexpected things. However, as soon as enough oil siphoned out to leave a pocket of air at the top of the filter, it would break the vacuum and stop the siphon. Sorry to throw people off. Still, all the oil above the filter plus the pocket of air would be lost. Of course, as I mentioned, the oil above the the filter may leak outthe bearings.