Acura TLX discontinued

The thread is about a Japanese car that is being discontinued. It is discontinued because it was an ill-born half hearted replacement of its predecessor, the TL, which sold much better. That's all the context I need. How the TL sold compared to a German car that some other Japanese brand tried to emulate is what is out of context, but it's ok because it makes for a discussion and that's what we're here for.

What is way beyond ok is to bring fanboyism accusations in a thread that is already derailed and hijacked into something else. I wouldn't pull the context card here - its legs are very short, and I doubt it can swim.
 
Yeah, yeah, just admit you skimmed the thread and lacked the context. It's OK most of us are probably guilty of it from time to time, I know I am.
I have not accused anyone of anything, it seems you're taking this personally and seem to be making up arbitrary rules as you go along.

What is way beyond ok is to bring fanboyism accusations in a thread that is already derailed and hijacked into something else. I wouldn't pull the context card here - its legs are very short, and I doubt it can swim.

The second it was commented that the model that the thread is about was criticized as being based on an Accord. From the very beginning, to be honest. The thread is about the TLX. Camrys became fair game when accords were mentioned. Reliability became fair game the second "quality" was used as a blanket concept also encompassing reliability.
 
The thread is about a Japanese car that is being discontinued. It is discontinued because it was an ill-born half hearted replacement of its predecessor, the TL, which sold much better. That's all the context I need. How the TL sold compared to a German car that some other Japanese brand tried to emulate is what is out of context, but it's ok because it makes for a discussion and that's what we're here for.

What is way beyond ok is to bring fanboyism accusations in a thread that is already derailed and hijacked into something else. I wouldn't pull the context card here - its legs are very short, and I doubt it can swim.
This thread has done in a few different directions. They tend to. It’s a discussion forum.

Acura has always been an oddball to me as they have never been particularly different vehicles.

You bring up German vehicles. I’ll make fun of Lexus too, but at least you can argue that historically they tried to compete with RWD German sedans. The LS/GS/IS all targeted that. Maybe some older Acuras did, but they always have struck me as fancy badge engineering, and variants sold in other markets as Honda.

If they screwed up the TLX, so be it. It’s hard to screw up an accord, love my 9th gen, but I’m sure it can be done. I’ve often been critical of Honda products, but I own two.

The fact that SUVs are pulling down the sedan market is also likely extremely salient. And potentially why the TLX was a poorly conceived replacement per your assessment. There are only so many design resources.
 
My only issue with Acura, Lexus, and Infinity is the "Premium 93 octane fuel requirement". which can add $10 to every gasoline fill up. That can add up if you are driving 20k miles a year like I do.

Also, I never thought the TLX added much as compared with a Honda Accord EX-L. so the TLX was never a good value.
 
You bring up German vehicles. I’ll make fun of Lexus too, but at least you can argue that historically they tried to compete with RWD German sedans. The LS/GS/IS all targeted that. Maybe some older Acuras did, but they always have struck me as fancy badge engineering, and variants sold in other markets as Honda.

When Lexus first launched as a brand with the LS it did much more than compete with the RWD German sedans. Lexus blew them away.

Lexus absolutely changed the game and the luxury German brands have never been the same in the US since. The LS immediately ate into BMW/Merc sales which dropped 29% and 19% respectively - across their entire lineups. BMW even accused Lexus of dumping and selling the LS below the costs of production.

All told LS development costs were $1 billion (project code name F1). Mercedes responded to the LS by spending $1 billion and with that they ended up building the worst S class ever made (w220).

The rest is history.
 
When Lexus first launched as a brand with the LS it did much more than compete with the RWD German sedans. Lexus blew them away.

Lexus absolutely changed the game and the luxury German brands have never been the same in the US since. The LS immediately ate into BMW/Merc sales which dropped 29% and 19% respectively - across their entire lineups. BMW even accused Lexus of dumping and selling the LS below the costs of production.

All told LS development costs were $1 billion (project code name F1). Mercedes responded to the LS by spending $1 billion and with that they ended up building the worst S class ever made (w220).

The rest is history.
I’ll take a w126 over an LS any day of the week. I’ve made my choices, and own them.

Your opinion they blew them away. I don’t necessarily agree. All the same I applaud them for making such vehicles instead of just badge engineered and fancied up fwd sedans.
 
The thread is about a Japanese car that is being discontinued. It is discontinued because it was an ill-born half hearted replacement of its predecessor, the TL, which sold much better. That's all the context I need. How the TL sold compared to a German car that some other Japanese brand tried to emulate is what is out of context, but it's ok because it makes for a discussion and that's what we're here for.

What is way beyond ok is to bring fanboyism accusations in a thread that is already derailed and hijacked into something else. I wouldn't pull the context card here - its legs are very short, and I doubt it can swim.
TLX is not sold in a vacuum. Failure to sell has its reasons, competition being number one.
 
My only issue with Acura, Lexus, and Infinity is the "Premium 93 octane fuel requirement". which can add $10 to every gasoline fill up. That can add up if you are driving 20k miles a year like I do.

Also, I never thought the TLX added much as compared with a Honda Accord EX-L. so the TLX was never a good value.
So we are back to: "I want Porsche 911." And someone answering: "Have you tried Honda Accord? It is fun."
You are clearly not the target audience for those cars.
 
TLX is not sold in a vacuum. Failure to sell has its reasons, competition being number one.
You are absolutely right. My point was that I don't think even Acura had their heart into the TLX. It was an "Eh. Let's see. Why not. Maybe".

The TL was a real attempt at something. At what - not sure. Maybe it was the sin of thinking that being so good at FWDs Honda could convert people with passion and money. Maybe doing the best of a bad situation. It was a great car. It didn't sell as well as the 3 series but it did sell well in the early 2000s.

Or just the result of extremely bad timing. Lexus invested a boatload of money into new platforms at their creation, and it worked, but that money was invested in the late 80s, where Japan was still spewing money and not counting. By the time they got their crisis - Lexus had established a base that made it sustainable.
Acura came in just a tad late, spending just a tad less money, just a pinch less involvement... it all compounded.
 
You are absolutely right. My point was that I don't think even Acura had their heart into the TLX. It was an "Eh. Let's see. Why not. Maybe".

The TL was a real attempt at something. At what - not sure. Maybe it was the sin of thinking that being so good at FWDs Honda could convert people with passion and money. Maybe doing the best of a bad situation. It was a great car. It didn't sell as well as the 3 series but it did sell well in the early 2000s.

Or just the result of extremely bad timing. Lexus invested a boatload of money into new platforms at their creation, and it worked, but that money was invested in the late 80s, where Japan was still spewing money and not counting. By the time they got their crisis - Lexus had established a base that made it sustainable.
Acura came in just a tad late, spending just a tad less money, just a pinch less involvement... it all compounded.
Well, I agree about all that, and now here we are. They had an opportunity. They had know-how.
Don't forget, sporty, luxury sedans are not generally big money makers, but they can boost sales of other modles. TLX might not be for you, kids, etc., but it is super fun, it is fast, it means something. OK, I will go and get MDX. I want to be part of that experience.
That is what BMW does with M models and MB does with AMG. You cannot afford M3, but hey, 330 is good too. I can get a piece of that fun.

Now, Honda does not have an issue selling Pilot, CR-V etc. People who buy those cars, generally don;t car about fun experience. Honda offers that. Blend appliance vehicles that have good value. It is business afterall. Acura? Who cares. If they cared they would not replace that TL that looked fantastic and a lot of people forgave FWD sin because of that, with that TLX abomination.
 
Lexus changed the game, especially for the German upscale cars.

Like it or not, the 1990 LS sucker punched the S-Class in the teeth, punched the 7 Series in the gut, and stole the Lincoln Town Car's lunch money.
The LS forced the Germans to drastically up their game, and the S-Class and 7 Series that followed were some of the best generations ever.

Not my opinion; history
 
Lexus changed the game, especially for the German upscale cars.

Like it or not, the 1990 LS sucker punched the S-Class in the teeth, punched the 7 Series in the gut, and stole the Lincoln Town Car's lunch money.
The LS forced the Germans to drastically up their game, and the S-Class and 7 Series that followed were some of the best generations ever.

Not my opinion; history
Lexus sold total of around 170,000 LS.
Mercedes sold total of 440,000 W140.
BMW around 380,000 E38.
 
You are absolutely right. My point was that I don't think even Acura had their heart into the TLX. It was an "Eh. Let's see. Why not. Maybe".

The TL was a real attempt at something. At what - not sure. Maybe it was the sin of thinking that being so good at FWDs Honda could convert people with passion and money. Maybe doing the best of a bad situation. It was a great car. It didn't sell as well as the 3 series but it did sell well in the early 2000s.

Or just the result of extremely bad timing. Lexus invested a boatload of money into new platforms at their creation, and it worked, but that money was invested in the late 80s, where Japan was still spewing money and not counting. By the time they got their crisis - Lexus had established a base that made it sustainable.
Acura came in just a tad late, spending just a tad less money, just a pinch less involvement... it all compounded.

Acura never figured out what it wanted to be, and the market punished them for it. That's still true to a large degree today.

Mazda made the hard, and probably wise, decision to abort the mission before it ever launched.

Lexus knew what it was after with the LS, made a very good car, and sold it at at below market for that segment to help the brand establish itself.

Infiniti, to a large degree as well. The Q45 was a fun car, hewing closer to BMW, and designed in a time when engineering was a top priority at Nissan. But using pictures of rocks to try to sell cars\ probably wasn't the smartest marketing approach, and attracted the wrong kind of attention.

When they put their minds to it, they were both more than capable. The accompanying rebadged models, and there were some mediocre ones, were needed to flesh out the lineups and give the new dealers something else to sell.

Honda did have the chops, and when it knew what the target was, it was able to execute, with the NS-X. Like the LS, it was also sort of a wake up call, but to Ferrari and other exotic marques that Fiat-level reliability didn't have to be part of the package.

But the second generation ping-ponged between Japan and Torrance and wallowed for something like a decade before the US team was finally allowed to develop and produce it. Those are business decisions, not technical ones. And yet more indecisiveness.

Which has also extended to their approach to motorsports (IndyCar excepted). F1? We're leaving. No, we're staying. And anybody who is somebody has, or is joining the sports car party in the WEC. Honda has a car, but won't race it there. HRC would have been better off if it had simply said something like its international focus was completely on F1, but instead talked like sports car doesn't exist, and they'd never considered it, sort of in a state of denial.

For better or worse they do it their way, but that doesn't always work out in the world at large.
 
The biggest contribution Toyota made in that project was in eventually making a manual gearbox available. A Getrag.

Otherwise, the Supra is basically a Z4 coupe with Toyota styling and suspension tuning (which is arguably better than its cousin's). They both roll off the same Steyr assembly line in Austria. Peel away the cladding and panels, and the guts would probably be much more familiar to someone who has wrenched on BMWs than Toyotas. No JIS screwdrivers or 12mm wrenches needed.

Before release, the model's final form was leaked…after someone found the entire vehicle logged in BMW's ETK parts catalog. Now, why would a Toyota badge need to be assigned a BMW part number, Dr. Zaius?

The Fiata 124 Spider could at least claim to have FCA's engine.

I know someone who had a first gen TSX, and spent a fair amount of time in the car. Very solid car (though the center stack backlighting was a common failure), and more European in sensibility than Japanese. But its steering did have that Honda trait where the effort would change mid-lock (also reminding me of the 2nd and 3rd gen Preludes I'd driven). Dunno whether it was by design, or a consequence of the geometry changes at certain steering angles, but it didn't have that full consistency in the controls like one expects on a European car. Or the old pre-EPS ones, anyway. K24 was decently sized, and liked to rev, but weaker down below, and having to rev it in certain situations acted to temper any luxury aspirations.

AWD can try, but cannot fully make up for the physics when a large mass is sitting on top of, or in front of the front axle line. Audi, which is not Japanese, and does have longitudinal engines has also still suffered from the laws of physics. I've also had daydreams about the S3 and RS3 and while I'm sure the trick torque vectoring rear differential is neat, and works well, can't fully get on board with the notion of a $65k Golf sedan, and handling so heavily determined by electronics tuning, not natural vehicle dynamics. But I'm old school. And in that price range, many options if one doesn't need to buy new.

Acura was originally created with the intent to provide Honda owners with nicer vehicles to step up to. They clearly weren't gunning for the Germans, as Toyota and Nissan did.

Problem was, that relied on owner loyalty to a large degree, and the company also hamstrung the brand by refusing to offer anything larger than a six, as mentioned.

They've reinvigorated the brand in more recent times, but were adrift for a long time, in the purgatory of near, but not fully being accepted as a luxury brand. The MDX kept them alive during the struggles, and CUVs became their bread-and butter. But I think its greatest sales success is still the Integra line, which were always "nicer" Civics at heart. That it took them so long to acknowledge that, and try again, was a bit delusional.

My buddy Ron has a Supra powered by a blown fuel Hemi...
 
We went minivan when we had to start lugging all sorts of stuff, and had utility that only a full size suburban could beat. None of these other SUVs (and I do own one, an ML320) hold a candle to the minivan.

But again, vanity… how many of my peers said “I can’t drive a minivan, that’s what my mom drove”… same as the generation before “I can’t drive a station wagon, that’s what my mom drove”.

I get the fact that a lot of higher vehicles are all around. Never bothers me personally, even in my lower-slung vehicles, but I do get the desire to see better all around.
My kids' thinking about "I can't drive SUVs, that's what my parents drive". They told me when they are ready to drive they would only consider small sedans instead of big vehicles like we are driving today.

Back in around 2007 I was cross shopping between the IS250 and TL, ended up buying the IS250 because the quality is much better (interior, feel, comfort, but not power or roominess). I guess I dodged a bullet because the TL's transmission would have grenade itself before the warranty is up. I think I made the right choice back then.

The later TL and TLX were more reliable, look worse, and too much compromise when they merged TL and TSX together. I don't know what they are aiming for and it ended up being a jack of all trade master of none vehicle. I don't know who wants it because it was not good at one particular thing like IS or TL or Camry or BMW, at least they don't have an image of being the best in any particular thing. I would have considered a TSX if they had it back then, or if they sell it now and I need a replacement vehicle today, but not TLX.
 
Last edited:
Lexus sold total of around 170,000 LS.
Mercedes sold total of 440,000 W140.
BMW around 380,000 E38.

Just an observation but I still see LS's every single day on the roads being daily driven. UZ engine still purring like a kitten.

But old S class, E class? E38? Don't see them nearly as much. Basically never, actually.

By these sales volumes I should be seeing the opposite though, right?

Again, this is just my observation. Maybe it's just my area?

I'm sure all these old Mercs & BMWs are sitting in people's garages... and the reason I don't see them out in the real world driving is because almost all of them have been crushed by now.
 
Just an observation but I still see LS's every single day on the roads being daily driven. UZ engine still purring like a kitten.

But old S class, E class? E38? Don't see them nearly as much. Basically never, actually.

By these sales volumes I should be seeing the opposite though, right?

Again, this is just my observation. Maybe it's just my area?

I'm sure all these old Mercs & BMWs are sitting in people's garages... and the reason I don't see them out in the real world driving is because almost all of them have been crushed by now.
I can’t say that I ever see the old school LS. When I do I notice them because they were indeed handsome cars like many Toyotas of that era.

I don’t see many E38 or W140. I think they killed themselves with complexity. I owned a w140. The relay boards and electrical distribution centers sure were a liability, and mine had none of the biodegrading wiring issues that made the cars more “eco friendly”, but have many more issues. I suspect that the old school LS had far less of the electrical complexity, more and none of the wiring materials issues. As I recall when the Japanese used more eco friendly wiring they too had issues with rodents and longevity…

I’ll keep my w126. Not a day goes by that I don’t see w126 and similar era MB on the road. Same for E30, E39, etc.
 
Just an observation but I still see LS's every single day on the roads being daily driven. UZ engine still purring like a kitten.

But old S class, E class? E38? Don't see them nearly as much. Basically never, actually.

By these sales volumes I should be seeing the opposite though, right?

Again, this is just my observation. Maybe it's just my area?

I'm sure all these old Mercs & BMWs are sitting in people's garages... and the reason I don't see them out in the real world driving is because almost all of them have been crushed by now.
Florida? Average age 138? Still 60k on the car? Because I can’t remember when I saw LS here.
 
Back
Top Bottom