Acura says leave oil in

[benched]

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Originally posted by Jay: Honda is using steel cylinder liners for many of it's new engines. Steel is a much more ductile metal than cast iron, so it's break-in characteristics are different than cast iron. An engine breaks in either by plastic deformation of the asperities (high points) or by instantaneous welding and tearing away of the asperities. Of the two, plastic deformation is much more desirable. Plastic deformation spreads the stress over a greater surface area without generating a wear particle or another rough surface as when asperities weld and tear away. The break-in oil is loaded with moly and the moly helps insure that most of the wear-in occurs by plastic deformation of the asperities. I kept the factory fill oil in my Acura RSX for 5,000 miles and the oil held up very well. The break-in wear metals were not excessive, and when I cut open the oil filter and examined the media there was very little visible metal in the pleats.

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Well, your RSX is higher rev than this TSX so if that worked for you I'll just go with that. Thanks! Benched [ August 05, 2003, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: benched ]

 

[benched]

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Originally posted by Gebo: It is interesting to note how Honda has changed their "maintenance" requirements for their AT's. It used to be 15K, moved up to 30K, moved up to 45K, this year moved back to 15K. This is what a Honda Tech told me. He said they kept trying to stretch out the maintenance until a lot of AT's starting breaking. Now they have moved the service back to 15K on this year's tranmissions. I don't own a 2003 one, so I can't prove any of this. Pure hearsay from 1 Honda mechanic. Truth or fiction????? My point is...are their recommendations best for us? Or is it best for Honda in maintaining their low maintenance cost??? Makes you wonder? Well, it makes me wonder.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "maintenance" on an AT. I'd be happy to send you maintenance schedule info. I don't see anything specific other than "Inspect all fluid levels, condition of fluids and check for leaks." That starts at 20K. Benched [ August 05, 2003, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: benched ]

 

[Chris]

Haven't seen a lot of successful 10k UOA so I am not sure I would jump into this interval.

 

[benched]

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Originally posted by yannis: this one also http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000389

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Very interesting...I guess I don't see the angle Honda has in recommending waiting 5K then. Surely they have some interest...maybe it just reduces the about of service problems they get from people going nuts on cold engines? Benched

 

[MikeySoft]

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What does Acura recommend if you have to add a quart of oil during the break in period?

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My 03 Accord didn't need any additional oil for the 7.5k miles (actually, 7783 miles) I had the factory fill oil in. I checked every week.

 

[CJH]

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Originally posted by Jim Spahr: What does Acura recommend if you have to add a quart of oil during the break in period? Use the off-the-shelf oil or use the special break in oil? Where do you get the factory break in oil? Does the dealer have this special formula oil in stock? I prefer the old procedure of first change at 500 miles and then go to reg. interval for your car after that. In response to someones post above, you are trying to seat the rings, not change the cross hatch pattern on the cylinders. If you don't seat the rings, the car will burn oil.

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It is EXTREMELY unlikely you would be down a quart within 7,500 to 10,000 miles with a new Honda or Acura (S2000 would be an exception if you rev it to the redline all the time). If you would need to add, you would just add the standard over-the-colunter oil recommended in the manual (5W20 on the newer ones). There is no reason for the dealer to stock the break in oil since it is factory fill in new Hondas / Acuras and it should not be used for subsequent oil changes. This isnt that big of a deal. Just FOLLOW THE OWNER'S MANUAL. It is that simple!

 

[ex_MGB]

This business of leaving factory oil in for a know not what is geared towards leased purchases. As well, there is a certain incentive for the manufacturer to direct the customer to the dealership as little as necessary - cuts down on minor complaints leading to warranty work. Sorta like the medical professions definition of a healthy human - someone who "hasn't been fully worked up" (ie. tested, tested and further tested...). Here's what I do with my new cars (manual tranny of course): 500 miles - change out motor oil and filter to Castrol GTX. Change out tranny and rear and/or transaxle to appropriate Redline. 3000 miles - Mobil 1 and new filter for the engine. After that, three times a year with Mobil 1 (fall change is 5W-30) for the engine and Redline at every 20k miles in the drivetrain.

 

[joee12]

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Originally posted by benched: It's my wife's car so it's an automatic...even though she's driven manuals all her life! Benched

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Welcome to Marriage. The wife always gets the nice ride. Let's see, in 97, I bought my wife a slightly used 96 Integra LS. She drove it for a few years. The when we found out she was pregnant, we traded in my 1 year old, fully loaded Mazda B3000 truck on a new 2002 Explorer Sport Trac. Guess who is driving the new Explorer? I now drive the 96 Integra to and from work daily. I figure that it is better than driving my Explorer and paying $500 a month for my wife to drive that fast, new, shiny TSX -Joe [ August 06, 2003, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: joee12 ]

 

[Bror Jace]

"Acura has only one manufacturer option (navigation), but a ton of dealer-installed options. I don't know why they have gone to this sales model. It made it harder for me to work a deal though so maybe that is why." This is the reason I didn't get the RSX-S. I like the 200hp engine and 6-speed tranny ... but not all the factory-installed "luxury" items which add weight, cost and mechanical complexity to the car. Basically, the factory and dealership make more money when they "force you" to buy all these "options." It's also easier on the assembly line if all the cars get the same equipment. Honda's profits are up in the past couple years ... but by making their cars significantly more expensive, their market share will undoubtedly fall. Sorry, I don't have the numbers but you won't see RSXs running around in the same numbers Integras are/were. I still like the RSX ... but I couldn't see spending $23+K on a "glorified Civic" so I got a Nissan Sentra Spec-V instead. Not as refined, I'm sure, but several thousand cheaper and still a lot of fun to drive. Back to the topic, I don't think keeping the break-in oil in for the full 5K/7.5K/10K miles etc ... is as critical as it was 2+ years ago. Nearly all the oils on the market these days have some moly in them ... and the 5W20s (recommend for nearly all Hondas/Acuras) are LOADED with the stuff. If it were me, I'd leave it in for about 3,000 miles and then dump it some time after that. --- Bror Jace

 

[JohnBrowning]

No one and I mean no one seems to be able to answere how leaving oil with elavated wear metals in for extended millage is good for bearings? It is is not hard to find oils that have generious amounts of moly! How does leaving oil with triple digit wear metals floating around in it for 5000 miles help the engine? It just seems that if we are going to throw all the reseaqrch on durability from 1950's to present we should have something more concrete then "THat's what the Owner manual say." or "That what my dealership said."! You would think that we would have ans SAE paper on this subject?

 

[Jim Spahr]

Above I have suggested a new car oil interval of 500 first change then go to Normal or Severe oil change intervals. As Plan B, how about leave the factory break in oil in for the recommended interval and change the oil filter to a K & N filter at 500 miles and 3k miles to remove metal particle as John B. rec. and remove all that sand casting and gasket material from the oil.

 

[CJH]

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning: No one and I mean no one seems to be able to answere how leaving oil with elavated wear metals in for extended millage is good for bearings? How does leaving oil with triple digit wear metals floating around in it for 5000 miles help the engine?

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THere is no question it is not good for the engine. The question is "Is it bad for the engine". Based on Honda's recommendation, I doubt it.

 

[ex_MGB]

THere is no question it is not good for the engine. The question is "Is it bad for the engine". Based on Honda's recommendation, I doubt it. If the car is leased, I would doubt it as well. However, if you plan on keeping the car to 200k miles plus, then, we have a maybe yes and maybe no. I have a theory that if you understand the cash flow, you have a better grasp on reality. BMW and Honda are the two most profitable car manufacturers. They produce excellent products with good margins and this leads, I believe, to them having a bit more leverage over the independently owned dealerships than some others. Both BMW and Honda push keeping the factory oil in for a good many miles. The less the car goes to the dealership, the less the customer can bring up "concerns". Obviously, after the sale, customer "satisfaction" means something slightly different between the manufacturer who pays for warranty work and the dealership who profits from warranty work. Throw in the stark fact that most customers know little to nothing and in many cases less than nothing about what's under the hood, and you now have a rather interesting situation. As well, the longer the oil change interval, the greater the likelihood the leasee will bring in his leased car anywhere near scheduled oil change! If the manufacturer were to crunch the numbers, factoring percent of leased vehicles, would it be a complete surprise if the manufacturer decided to recommend leaving in the factory fill oil such that the factory fill drain interval cuts into the margin of error which promotes absolute engine longevity vs. potential profit? Furthermore, are Honda and BMW engines engineered and manufactured different than other engines such that leaving in the factory fill for say 5,000 miles is a benefit vs. a fresh oil and filter at 500 miles then switching to a good synthetic at 3000 miles?

 

[CJH]

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Originally posted by ex_MGB: Furthermore, are Honda and BMW engines engineered and manufactured different than other engines such that leaving in the factory fill for say 5,000 miles is a benefit vs. a fresh oil and filter at 500 miles then switching to a good synthetic at 3000 miles?

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I have no personal experience with BMWs, but Honda seems to have a particular knack and rep for building great engines that are reliable. The S2000 is, I think, either the highest revving production car engine...or it was when it was introduced...and my humble Civic Si revs to 8,000 rpm. Aside from performance, the engines are extremely relaibale...and most owners seem to feel they are entitled to 200,000 trouble free miles. I can't see Honda jeapordizing their rep as one of the most reliable car manufacturers by providing poor warranty recommendations to an otherwise outstanding product. My theory is the reason Honda is very profitable is they build a reliable, attractive and functional car that is durable and lasts much longer than most. Over time, more and more people are learning that you don't have to live with the problems commonly associated with domestic cars and are willing to pay a premium for them. It took me a long time to face up to this. My GM dealer tells me that "all cars today have problems with the life of brake rotors". I say ...maybe all domestic cars.

 

[Bror Jace]

JohnBrowning: “No one, and I mean NO ONE, seems to be able to answer how leaving oil with elevated wear metals in for extended mileage is good for bearings? How does leaving oil with triple digit wear metals floating around in it for 5000 miles help the engine? ” and: “It’s not hard to find oils that have generous amounts of moly!” JB, I can’t give you a definitve answer but I sorta addressed this point in my post a little above yours. I’m not sure many how many UOAs show “triple digit wear metals” (aside from GM V8s and their copper) but they often show double digit numbers … and that isn’t a really good thing. The manufacture of engines these days is as precise as ever and I’m guessing the hoggin’ chunks of slag which used to come tumbling out of the drain hole are (mostly) a thing of the past. What does wear off and end up in the oil (the bigger bits) is caught by the oil filter. OK, so what about the oil filter clogging prematurely and going into bypass mode from the initial (accelerated) wear? Well, those of us who are refugees from the Edmunds forum (Bobis, Al, Spector, WTD, ZR2Rando, and others) knew a guy (Tom – TSJAY) who worked for a filter media manufacturer in northern Jersey and he had told us that the filters are really over-engineered to gobble up ungodly amounts of particulate matter and continue to do their job. He cited genuine test data, etc … at the time. So, in just a few thousand (3,000 – 6,000) miles I wouldn’t be too worried about them clogging and/or bypassing … again, keeping in mind the break-in debris is much less than it was 20+ years ago. Yes, it’s true that many oils these days … even white/private label oils sold by Walmart and others use moly and this wasn’t true when Honda’s recommendation regarding the break-in oil became widespread (2000? 2001?) Many 5W20s have around 200-300PPMs of moly in them … but this is shy of the ~1,000PPM for the factory oil. But, I’ve tried to discuss this before; How does the concentration of moly in an oil affect the “uptake” of molybdenum? Say, the difference between Castrol GTX (~50PPM) and Schaeffer (~200PPM) … or Schaeffer vs. Red Line (~600PPM). No one answered me at the time so I still don’t know. I’m guessing the rate-of-uptake is affected by concentration which is why Red Line uses so much … but that’s just a guess on my part. Anyway, that’s why I would compromise a bit and dump the factory oil sometime after the 3,000 mile mark. Most break-in has occurred and the extreme “uptake” is no longer needed. Currently available oils (especially 5W20s) have the adds to get the job done and you are not circulating particle-rich used oil throughout the motor. CJH, No, I wouldn’t think that Honda would pass along “bad” info/advice on how to break the motor in … but I would expect them to give us “dumbed down” or “one-size-fits-all” advice … and, in fact, that’s what they do. The same cars overseas have different viscosity recommendations for different temperatures except the country with one of the most extreme spreads of climate (United States) gets one recommendation for all. Doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense to me. So, I think just about anyone will be “OK” following the manufacturer’s (Honda’s) advice, but I think you can do better if you have the right info and put a little thought and effort into it. Significantly? Maybe not. And, as I’ve stated before, I think that Honda’s recommendation is dated and does not take into consideration the “spurt” (pardon the pun ) of oil formula changes (addition of moly) in the past 2 years. So, I don’t take it as gospel. --- Bror Jace

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Hey Bror Jace, haven't heard from you much lately,glad to see you still hangin around!! Here's my view of things: My example of break-in wear being disruptive of the crosshatch pattern of the cylinder walls was a little out in left field there, sorry for the bad example. I really meant the general situation of any wear pattern being a linear pattern going WITH the direction of the offending moving parts motion- my example was the piston moves vertical in the cylinder, but the cylinder already has a prepared crosshatch pattern to control oil loss due to that vertical motion....any wear that happens at that point will contribute to oil loss. Maybe I should have used cam/crankshaft bearings but regardless, all I meant was "any wear due to mechanical motion just leads to further issues due to that new pattern of wear". I further believe that most manufactures know that more and more people are leasing vehicles these days- and the main thrust is to compete on the "my vehicle needs less maintenance than the other guy's vehicle does" bandwagon.." Those of us that intend to keep the vehicle forever probably follow a few different rules than those typical of normal "short term ownership folks". I may be in the minority these days, but I keep vehicles until they die a natural death- not being sentimental or nothing, but it works out ALOT cheaper for me.. Sorry for the bad example, but I hope you see my point---any initial wear will be present for the life of the vehicle, any way to minimize it is good for a lifer like me, may not matter for a renter/leaser like what is more prevalent these days.. 2nd point: anybody ever given an iron skillet a good cure? you gotta clean it first, oil it and cook that oil in to smooth out any rough spots, then keep that thing oily till the grandkids take it home with them....I'm only 43 with no kids and I still put an excellent cure on my skillets....I apologize, just had to throw that in.. Hey everybody...It's Friday night, see y'all ZR2Rando [ August 08, 2003, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: ZR2RANDO ]