AC Delco "Check Valve"

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Interesting how when you are still within the warranty period they claim a $15 filter fixed the issue. I'm sure if it was out of warranty you would need an entire engine.



haha well said. So true.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Peted

I have a feeling they will admit to a noise, but say the noise is "normal." Which this particular noise certainly is not. The engine ticks, a lot of engines do. As I have said, from my research, this noise is the noise of bad lifters and heard loudly only at start up.

That is Exactly what I am going to tell them. I practically told the manager that today. I could hear in his voice and with his words that he knows it needs new lifters, but they really do not want to replace them.


I don't know why any dealer service department wouldn't do a warranty job if the tests per the Service Bulletin says it needs new lifters under warranty. Are they just lazy?

They get paid for warranty work.

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Note that the Service Bulletin (linked in the OPs 1st post) doesn't even mention anything associated with an oil filter as a possible cause. It says:

• Aerated oil in the valve lifter body, resulting in the valve lifter being unable to purge the air quickly.
• A low engine oil level or incorrect oil viscosity.
• Dirty or contaminated oil.
• A low internal valve lifter oil reservoir level.
• Debris in the valve lifter.
• A high valve lifter leak down rate.


I saw this as well.

I brought in the bulletin and showed it to the Service manager. I also told him how the saved voice mail from the service adviser told me that the issue was because the Ultra does not have the check-valve (ADBV).

After hearing and agreeing that the cause of the issue was with this Check Valve... I presented my case.

I brought in a new Ultra filter and a new AC Delco PF48 filter. I also brought in pictures of both filters taken apart and a print out of the Ultra spec sheet showing that it Does have the ADBV. I showed the filters and proved that there is in fact an ADBV in the Ultra.

He immediately told me that the issue was Not with the check valve (after just agreeing it was).

You know what he said?

He told me that there is a TSB regarding Fram filters and how the ADBV falls apart, and pieces get up into the engine and destroy it. And because of this TSB my claim was denied. I told him I do not believe that at all and kindly asked for a print-out of the TSB because I have never heard of this issue. He then told me I am being defensive and that I am going about this all wrong.

After ignoring my request for evidence of this Fram TSB.. I asked again for the evidence. He looked online for a few minutes then told me he can't find it but assured me it exists. He also said he has worked with GM since 1997 and that this Fram issue was a problem a long time ago. Which I told him, if it happened so long ago then why is it an issue on my 2009 truck? He had no answer and assured me the "Orange" ADBV of Fram filters falls apart.

He then assured me that he will personally listen to the truck tomorrow morning with the AC Delco filter. If he hears the lifter noise he will replace them.

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: Danno
Let's let Peted tell us if the noise has been eliminated or not once he has had a chance to drive the truck.


Oh it is just Peter. For some reason my username is Peted. D is the first letter of my last name.

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
^^^ My bet is the noise doesn't change with the AC Delco filter. That Fram Ultra flows better, and has a better ADBV than the AC Delco filter.

Only way that might not be true is if there was a major problem with that Ultra filter (which I doubt). That's why I asked if he got the Ultra back from the dealer so he might consider cutting it open for an inspection.


I also bet the noise will still be there. My thoughts are the same. It flows better and has a better ADBV. I researched filters heavily before deciding to use the Ultra. Honestly, I like a lot of filters. I couldn't make up my mind. But since I was going to use Pennzoil Ultra oil, I decided to have a matching 'Ultra' filter (lol).

I did not get the filter back. I will ask for it tomorrow. Since the manager claims this filter falls apart and since the filter obviously did not fall apart, then I do not see the issue with how this filter can effect the lifters and the noise.

I do however always inspect my filters carefully, usually with a flashlight, as I am sure all of us do. I do want to take it apart and see for myself. I'll report back if I get the filter.

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: stchman
On my 2013 Silverado I normally run AC Delco PF48 oil filters, but I am currently using a Fram Ultra XG10060 and have noticed a slight tick upon start up. The tick has been here since the temperature has dropped (it has been VERY cold here in St. Louis).

I have never noticed the tick when using an AC Delco oil filter.


Hmm. Good info.

I do know that I have noticed the start up tick with the PF48, a Mobil 1 synthetic, and now with the Ultra. The Ultra could have made it louder. It was always present and somewhat loud. The longer the truck sat, 8-10 hours, the louder the tick.

What I found convincing was that it is always warm here in South Florida, Palm Beach to be exact. The coldest it has been is 52 degrees. That only lasted one night. It is back up to low 70's. Heard the tick all through the 85+ summer weather too!

Thank you for your input.

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Note that the Service Bulletin (linked in the OPs 1st post) doesn't even mention anything associated with an oil filter as a possible cause. It says:

• Aerated oil in the valve lifter body, resulting in the valve lifter being unable to purge the air quickly.
• A low engine oil level or incorrect oil viscosity.
• Dirty or contaminated oil.
• A low internal valve lifter oil reservoir level.
• Debris in the valve lifter.
• A high valve lifter leak down rate.

Correct, read that myself before posting and nowhere is there a mention of any aftermarket filter issues. As Zee says, only way imo it's the Ultra is if it's somehow defective, which I also doubt. Too bad the OP doesn't have the filter to post.

My guess without looking at the ACDelco is it uses a nitrile adbv as opposed to the higher quality silicone adbv used on the Ultra. And there's Ultra's synthetic media vs cellulose for the ACDelco.

All that aside though, the dealer saying the Ultra didn't have an adbv (check valve), I'm willing to say now was untrue.

Bottom line imo, dealer "check valve" explanation doesn't pass the smell test.


I will try to get the filter and report back.

Yes exactly. but the service manager assured me the Fram orange ADBV is of garbage quality and falls apart. /s

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Bottom line imo, dealer "check valve" explanation doesn't pass the smell test.


You can say that again.

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: stchman
I have never noticed the tick when using an AC Delco oil filter.


But have you used the AC Delco filter under the same temperature conditions?


My 2008 Silverado had the 5.3L AFM engine and I drove it in cold weather as well. No tick.

Last winter has not been as brutal as this winter, but last winter I never got a tick on start up using the PF48 oil filter on the 2013 last winter.


More good info. Because according to everything I read a start up tick is Not normal. Even though the manager was already trying to tell me that some loud start up noise is normal, in warm south Florida..

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Peted

I have a feeling they will admit to a noise, but say the noise is "normal." Which this particular noise certainly is not. The engine ticks, a lot of engines do. As I have said, from my research, this noise is the noise of bad lifters and heard loudly only at start up.

That is Exactly what I am going to tell them. I practically told the manager that today. I could hear in his voice and with his words that he knows it needs new lifters, but they really do not want to replace them.


I don't know why any dealer service department wouldn't do a warranty job if the tests per the Service Bulletin says it needs new lifters under warranty. Are they just lazy?

They get paid for warranty work.


My father made a similar comment. I did read on some GM forums that according to some posters who worked or knew someone in the service department that GM pays Less what a customer will pay. I am not sure how much truth there is to that, but it is all I have.

I bet if I wait until my warranty expires, May of this year, that they will say I have bad lifters and it will cost X.XX amount of money.

 

[Peted]

I notice I repeated my self in several posts. I was trying to respond to everyone individually. I appreciate all the input.

 

[bullwinkle]

I've actually gotten the same run-around from Ford on my company van's 4.6-it's had a slow AF leak since day 1, and there are visible antifreeze tracks running down into the valley under the IM. But they "can't find the leak"! If it was my van, they would have been forced to buy it back under OH's Lemon Law already!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Peted
He then assured me that he will personally listen to the truck tomorrow morning with the AC Delco filter. If he hears the lifter noise he will replace them.


If it was me, I'd be there with him in the morning to listen together.

I've never seen a TSB about "Fram orange ADBVs falling apart". Besides, if it did fall apart the chunks would be caught in the media and not get into the engine. It's only possible chunks could go through the bypass valve if it was wide open at times (which I doubt). If the ADBV did fail, then it could allow the oiling system to back drain. That's why I was hoping you had the old oil filter so you could cut it open to ensure everything was good inside it.

But if it was a bad filter, then you should have been hearing way more noise with a bad filter than you have been hearing with previous good filter used. Did you all of a sudden hear way more noises with this filter? ... doesn't sound like it from what I've read so far.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: Peted
The service manager is going to personally listen to the start up noise tomorrow morning with the new AC Delco filter in place. I have noticed the noise since I have had the truck, bought it used at 36,000 miles, now it just passed 50,000. I started researching on what it was and also listening to see if the noise was still present after fresh oil and filter. It was. I'm sure the noise will still be there. Now whether the manager will hear it is another story.


Be sure to get the name and phone number of the local GM rep. He's your next contact.

Also check local Better Business Bureau and see if this dealer is on their blacklist. The BBB doesn't have quite horsepower on auto complaints they used to, but it's still another arrow to fire:

BBB Complaint

BBB Lemon Law Complaint

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Peted
He then assured me that he will personally listen to the truck tomorrow morning with the AC Delco filter. If he hears the lifter noise he will replace them.


If it was me, I'd be there with him in the morning to listen together.

I've never seen a TSB about "Fram orange ADBVs falling apart". Besides, if it did fall apart the chunks would be caught in the media and not get into the engine. It's only possible chunks could go through the bypass valve if it was wide open at times (which I doubt). If the ADBV did fail, then it could allow the oiling system to back drain. That's why I was hoping you had the old oil filter so you could cut it open to ensure everything was good inside it.

But if it was a bad filter, then you should have been hearing way more noise with a bad filter than you have been hearing with previous good filter used. Did you all of a sudden hear way more noises with this filter? ... doesn't sound like it from what I've read so far.


That is a good point. Maybe I will go there first thing in the morning so that I can do just that.

No, I have always heard the noise. At first I brushed it off until I found threads on GM forums talking about bad lifters. Then I started listening to the engine outside of the cab after a few hour rest. Over the past few months I have been researching the issue and making sure what I heard was in fact lifters. So after the holidays I decided to take the truck in for warranty work before it expires in May.

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: Peted
The service manager is going to personally listen to the start up noise tomorrow morning with the new AC Delco filter in place. I have noticed the noise since I have had the truck, bought it used at 36,000 miles, now it just passed 50,000. I started researching on what it was and also listening to see if the noise was still present after fresh oil and filter. It was. I'm sure the noise will still be there. Now whether the manager will hear it is another story.


Be sure to get the name and phone number of the local GM rep. He's your next contact.

Also check local Better Business Bureau and see if this dealer is on their blacklist. The BBB doesn't have quite horsepower on auto complaints they used to, but it's still another arrow to fire:

BBB Complaint

BBB Lemon Law Complaint



That's the plan. I am looking for the info now.

Thank you.

 

[cronk]

I've worked For a GM dealer for over 10 years and have never heard of a TSB on Fram ADBV material.
I do recall some sort of TSB on aftermarket filters, but it was a long time ago and related to the ADBV in some aftermarket filters not functioning properly.
You have used several and they can't all be defective.

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: cronk
I've worked For a GM dealer for over 10 years and have never heard of a TSB on Fram ADBV material.
I do recall some sort of TSB on aftermarket filters, but it was a long time ago and related to the ADBV in some aftermarket filters not functioning properly.
You have used several and they can't all be defective.


Me neither, but he assured me one does exist. Either way I am expecting a print out of this elusive TSB tomorrow morning. Otherwise they threw away my good filter and installed a lesser filter and charged me a premium for it. Without even fixing the issue I went in for.

It's funny, my father gets the kings treatment there with the same people because he drives a ZR1. He just recently had new headlights installed outside of warranty and has received Two full details all free of charge.

I brought that fact up with the manager and he told me that is how they treat all their customers. Oh Really?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Peted
It's funny, my father gets the kings treatment there with the same people because he drives a ZR1. He just recently had new headlights installed outside of warranty and has received Two full details all free of charge.

I brought that fact up with the manager and he told me that is how they treat all their customers. Oh Really?


Better put some "ZR1" emblems on your front fenders.

 

[Peted]

hah I love those emblems. I hear they'll make your car much much faster

 

[Danno]

Originally Posted By: Peted
I did read on some GM forums that according to some posters who worked or knew someone in the service department that GM pays Less what a customer will pay. I am not sure how much truth there is to that, but it is all I have.


Dealers do get reimbursed for warranty work at a lower rate than front door work.