A theory on "high mileage" oils.

[j_mac]

I've been thinking and have a few questions. Are "high mileage" oils really better at lubricating because they have high ZDDP concentrations?
It got me wondering when I looked into the Quaker State "300,000 mi" Cash-Back and warranty gimmick. They REQUIRE you to use their "high mileage" oil after 75,000 (or is it 100,000 miles?)

It just so happens that (from what I remember hearing here) that at 100,000 miles, the engine manufacturer will no longer be under warranty obligation by the federal government for now or future proposed catalytic converter warranties.

So, It seems that Quaker State wants you to put the "high mileage" oil in the engine because it lubricates better and will actually allow the engine to reach 300,000 miles, whereas the regular oil would not.

I'm assuming that maybe the "high mileage" oil has some good additives that may damage catalytic converters, but the warranty would be gone, so the car companies and the oil compmanies are happy.

After all, the way I understand it, the ONLY reason they took ZDDP out of oil was because the car companies were complaining that they were having to replace alot of catalytic converters under the federal 50,000 warranty because ZDDP was killing them. And a 100,000 mile warranty has been talked about by the feds for years... So, the oil companies willingly took the good additives (ZDDP) out of oil to please the car companies. Right?

I'm not really sure about these things, but I'm hoping to spark some intrest in YOU industry insiders.

I'm trying to understand the "High Mileage" oil gimmick.

We didn't have high mileage oils in the old days. They were all just called MOTOR OIL.

 

[A_Harman]

Federal regulations for many years have required automakers to warrant emissions control systems for 150,000 miles. This has been the main driver for reducing phosphorous (zddp) levels in oil. API standards are defined as a cooperative activity between the auto and oil companies. Since very few new cars have slider-follower valvetrains, the potential risks of reducing zddp for new engines are small. And in the meantime, new anti-wear additives based on moly or titanium have been developed. And API has refined the phosphorous requirement in the SN specification to retain more zddp in the engine and to keep it out of the cat.

There is more difference between HM and non-HM oils than just zddp content. Seal conditioners, additional detergency, higher viscosity, and lower NOACK are also included in the "gimmick".

 

[j_mac]

Mr. Harmon,
Thank you much for the info. I'm an amateur "oil expert" that really doesn't know much. Trying to learn from you guys.

You mentioned the Phosphorous in the new "SN" rating oils. I used an SN oil in my new car's first oil change. Would an SM or an SN oil be a better lubricator, regardless of all other characteristics?

 

[Boss302fan]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Federal regulations for many years have required automakers to warrant emissions control systems for 150,000 miles. This has been the main driver for reducing phosphorous (zddp) levels in oil. API standards are defined as a cooperative activity between the auto and oil companies. Since very few new cars have slider-follower valvetrains, the potential risks of reducing zddp for new engines are small. And in the meantime, new anti-wear additives based on moly or titanium have been developed. And API has refined the phosphorous requirement in the SN specification to retain more zddp in the engine and to keep it out of the cat.

There is more difference between HM and non-HM oils than just zddp content. Seal conditioners, additional detergency, higher viscosity, and lower NOACK are also included in the "gimmick".


Sounds like a HM oil, like Mobil 1, then could be classifed as a better oil then some other reg syn oils because of the additional additives...

I have used Mobil 1 HM oils in new and older cars and have been very impressed.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: j_mac
Are "high mileage" oils really better at lubricating because they have high ZDDP concentrations?


That's the first time I've heard of HM oils having increased concentrations of ZDDP
additives. I thought they just had added seal conditioners and extra detergents.

 

[mechtech2]

There are loads of new cars that have non roller valvetrains.
And umpteen jillion older ones on the road.
But very few pushrod flat tappet type engines. These are the highest load inducing systems on cams/lifters.
ZDDP is used as needed. It is sacrificial. New engines that are broken in don't need much. And other additives are often better, like MoSo2.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
I have used Mobil 1 HM oils in new and older cars and have been very impressed.


I`ve been using them for the past few oci`s and I feel Mobil 1`s HM oils are amazing!

 

[MrRPM]

Is it just me or does it seem that HM oils kinda resemble HDEOs
thicker(sometimes), more detergents, better wear additives, ect...

also, the OP got me thinking...why dont we use HM oils from the start of an engines life? why wait till 75k miles?

 

[Artem]

because it "supposedly" kill your CAT by 60,000 miles

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: MrRPM
also, the OP got me thinking...why dont we use HM oils from the start of an engines life? why wait till 75k miles?


I wonder the same thing as well. More zddp,more detergency,more anti-wear additives,stronger add pack.........HM oils seem to be better/stronger oils.

 

[OldCowboy]

The phosphorous requirements for SN and SM motor oils are exactly the same: a minimum of 600 PPM and a maximum of 800 PPM. So, the real differences between High Mileage and regular oils has nothing to do with ZDDP.

 

[kender]

Originally Posted By: j_mac
I've been thinking and have a few questions. Are "high mileage" oils really better at lubricating because they have high ZDDP concentrations?
It got me wondering when I looked into the Quaker State "300,000 mi" Cash-Back and warranty gimmick. They REQUIRE you to use their "high mileage" oil after 75,000 (or is it 100,000 miles?)

It just so happens that (from what I remember hearing here) that at 100,000 miles, the engine manufacturer will no longer be under warranty obligation by the federal government for now or future proposed catalytic converter warranties.

So, It seems that Quaker State wants you to put the "high mileage" oil in the engine because it lubricates better and will actually allow the engine to reach 300,000 miles, whereas the regular oil would not.

I'm assuming that maybe the "high mileage" oil has some good additives that may damage catalytic converters, but the warranty would be gone, so the car companies and the oil compmanies are happy.

After all, the way I understand it, the ONLY reason they took ZDDP out of oil was because the car companies were complaining that they were having to replace alot of catalytic converters under the federal 50,000 warranty because ZDDP was killing them. And a 100,000 mile warranty has been talked about by the feds for years... So, the oil companies willingly took the good additives (ZDDP) out of oil to please the car companies. Right?

I'm not really sure about these things, but I'm hoping to spark some intrest in YOU industry insiders.

I'm trying to understand the "High Mileage" oil gimmick.

We didn't have high mileage oils in the old days. They were all just called MOTOR OIL.


You say they "REQUIRE" you to use their higher mileage oil after 75,000 miles for the warranty. I read through Quaker States requirements. I did not see this stated anywhere. I believe any of their oils can be used.Although everything must be "by the book" with all your vehicles maintenance, or the warranty is void. This means if your manual says change the coolant every 3 years and your reciepts for this have dates equaling 3 years and 1 day.....VOID. I do believe Quaker State makes a very good oil, I just think all the oil companies warranties are useless.

Actually, after reading it again, it does say for the "cash back" program you must use the higher mileage, synthetic blend, or full synthetic. So, I guess you were partly correct.

 

[j_mac]

I'm just asking questions and making assumtions. The reason I'm here is to find answers from people who "know" oil.

My goal is to figure out what 5w-20 oil is the best oil available to run in my new Hyundai Accent. The idea is to make this thing last me as long as possible because with infation out of control and my pay staying the same I cant afford to be wasting any money on anything I can avoid buying.

I've already had to make a decision. I used Quaker State 5w-20 green bottle because Hyundai "recommends" it (oh how I hate being under that gun) and because of QS's 300,000mi gimmick. Also, the consensus I got when I asked here what is the best conventional SN 5w-20 was that "all API certified SN oils perform the same."
...so I just went and grabbed a jug of the green stuff because the only other thing going in my favor was bolstering a future warranty claim and maybe getting something under the 300,000 mile game.

 

[ltslimjim]

^Shouldn't hurt a thing, IMO. QSGB is solid, just keep the OCI within the warranty and do your preventative maintenance work on time, as per the scheduled maintenance per the owners manual regarding non-lifetime parts.

 

[jorton]

From high mileage oil to economics. Go with your plan to participate in the 300,000 miles guarantee, and run QS red bottle after the car reaches a certain age. Buy your oil when Advance Auto Parts has an oil change special. Advance has better filters than Auto Zone has.

 

[hominid7]

Things may have changed in the past few months with new packaging, but i do remember recently that the red-bottle QS high mileage oil did not carry the API donut (due to the fact it was technically an additive not an oil due to the slick 50 marketing placement). I would not want to risk voiding any auto-maker warranty by using an oil without the API donut.

 

[Scott88]

^ Almost all HM oils don't have the API starburst... It's still an oil, and the API donut should still be there. The HM oils are thicker so they do not meet certain API fuel economy requirements.

"Energy Conserving" is the term you'll see.

 

[Mark72]

Originally Posted By: Scott88
^ Almost all HM oils don't have the API starburst... It's still an oil, and the API donut should still be there. The HM oils are thicker so they do not meet certain API fuel economy requirements.

"Energy Conserving" is the term you'll see.


Mobil Super HM does have the API starburst w/resource conserving. What is their magical secret to be able to do that?

 

[hominid7]

Originally Posted By: Scott88
^ Almost all HM oils don't have the API starburst... It's still an oil, and the API donut should still be there. The HM oils are thicker so they do not meet certain API fuel economy requirements.

"Energy Conserving" is the term you'll see.


I'm talking about the API Donut, not the energey conserving starburst. Previously the QS High Mileage oil did not have the API Donut.

This specifically had to do with the placement of "Slick 50" on the label.

 

[hominid7]

Originally Posted By: Mark72
Originally Posted By: Scott88
^ Almost all HM oils don't have the API starburst... It's still an oil, and the API donut should still be there. The HM oils are thicker so they do not meet certain API fuel economy requirements.

"Energy Conserving" is the term you'll see.


Mobil Super HM does have the API starburst w/resource conserving. What is their magical secret to be able to do that?


It means that the oil meets the Energy conserving / resource conserving requirements. The term "high mileage" many times means "thicker" and therefore not able to pass the energy conserving requirements, but "high mileage" is also a marketing term that can mean pretty much whatever the maker wants it to mean. So in this case, it doesn't mean "thicker" it likely means that the oil is somehow formulated to be somehow different than other oils and therefore it is being marketed as "high mileage".