A Case For Minimalism

[MSCH]

If I can make my older car feel and drive like new for a lot less money than a new car, why would I bother getting rid of it?

I tend to be the last owner of most cars, so yeah, the junk yard or somebody really desperate for wheels end up with most of mine.

 

[MSCH]

You will own nothing and be happy. I think I've heard that somewhere.

there is something to be said about that as a way to live. one of my friends tends towards minimalism... he usually has one vehicle.. you go in his house it doesn't have any decorations, he has 2 pairs of shoes, 2 shirts a pair of jeans and a couple pairs of shorts... same goes for tools... it lends to a clean lean appearance and not much to worry about.

 

[bullwinkle]

There’s something to be said for vehicular simplicity-unfortunately simple doesn’t sell! That’s how I wound up with a work van with a 10 speed automatic transmission, rain sensing wipers, a sliding door with latches that don’t work correctly, & a host of other expensive future issues at only 50,000 miles. Could be worse, it could be an EV one…

 

[Skippy722]

^This. 100%
'You want to be environmentally friendly and minimalist, go buy a well maintained low mileage car from the early 2000s. Take care of it. It'll be on the roads until 2040'

Maybe in Arizona. By year 20 out here most everything returning to the earth as iron oxide at an ever increasing rate. Sure, you can prolong the life with fluid film/other methods, but like death it is inevitable.

Seen more than a handful with decent to great looking bodies, but a quick look underneath showed rotting subframes, suspension mounts barely holding on, and bolts that are only coming out once they’re reduced to liquid.

 

[billt460]

Maybe in Arizona. By year 20 out here most everything returning to the earth as iron oxide at an ever increasing rate. Sure, you can prolong the life with fluid film/other methods, but like death it is inevitable.

Seen more than a handful with decent to great looking bodies, but a quick look underneath showed rotting subframes, suspension mounts barely holding on, and bolts that are only coming out once they’re reduced to liquid.

Very true. I've always believed there has to be some type of financial connection of Morton Salt to the auto industry. Both support each others bottom line.

 

[MSCH]

Maybe in Arizona. By year 20 out here most everything returning to the earth as iron oxide at an ever increasing rate. Sure, you can prolong the life with fluid film/other methods, but like death it is inevitable.

Seen more than a handful with decent to great looking bodies, but a quick look underneath showed rotting subframes, suspension mounts barely holding on, and bolts that are only coming out once they’re reduced to liquid.

having grown up in Michigan on a dirt road, yeah that is true for place like that especially when you get that road salt dirt mix embedded into every crevice under the car. I've been in Fla for the last 40 years, so unless a car down here is submerged in salt water regularly or lives its life in a place like the Keys, the underside stays clean..

 

[otis24]

So, take a good reliable vehicle and being able to remodel the interior like you would a house? I like it!

 

[pbm]

I agree with the OP....a car is a depreciating asset that should be used until it's no longer functionable in order to get the most value from your investment. I do all required maintenance to help achieve that goal. Unfortunately, I usually get bored after about 120 to 140K and the next owner benefits from my maintenance.

 

[dumkid]

I agree with the OP....a car is a depreciating asset that should be used until it's no longer functionable in order to get the most value from your investment. I do all required maintenance to help achieve that goal. Unfortunately, I usually get bored after about 120 to 140K and the next owner benefits from my maintenance.

my parents are usually the last owner of a car. they find a cheap and somewhat cared for specimen and keep it until they don't need it anymore or it dies. they have a vw jetta (diesel) with almost 400,000 miles on it. they got it when it was like 3 years old, and they got a decent price because it had cheap steel rims and water in the fuel, so it ran bad and looked bad. they've put 320,000 miles on it since then, and get 45+ mpg out of it.

 

[GMFan]

I prefer base model cars with less things to go wrong.

 

[billt460]

I prefer base model cars with less things to go wrong.

Your original post was better, and spot on.

 

[Bill7]

I'm going to be polite as possible. Sorry, but "minimalism" is not a new car that requires a entire re-vamping of electrical grids and infrastructures to be adopted en mass to be workable. You want "minimalism," then walk, ride a bike, or take a bus. If you must have a vehicle, buy a 10-20 year old Camry or Civic with low miles. You'll get another 20 years of low cost reliability with minimal environmental footprint, waste, and maintenance.


Nope. Nationwide adoption of about 4%, almost entirely heavily represented in a unique weather and economic "climate" of California. Excellent weather, and extremely wealthy toys for the elite class who - trust me are NOT minimalistic. Impractical at best. EV ownership is generally car number 2 thru 5. The rest of the nation ranges from about 0% to 2% adoption.


False. EV battery realistic lifespan is about a decade. Advertised at 15 years, batteries never meet optimistic advertised goals. Costs something like $10k to replace. Sure they might improve and come down in cost. But as it stands now the first battery replacement will meet or exceed the value of the car at year 10-15. Technology, unlike mechanical devices, is easier to build in obsolescence. After year X companies stop supporting updates etc. and tech becomes obsolete and unworkable. How many old cell phones and laptops do you keep, versus disposable and getting new? Exactly. Not many or none.





Idealistic. None of that will happen. There will be incentives to make cars that last only beyond warranties and battery life spans to keep new buyers coming. Example: Current auto makers know exactly how to make plastics and "leather seats" last only beyond a certain age, and then fail. It's planned obsolescence but much easier with EVs than mechanical vehicles that people can actually fix and keep on the roads.

That's not really supported by reality, if you examine the consumer debt, perpetual auto loans, leases, renting of apartments and houses, etc. American consumers make really poor economic decisions in general, and often rent/lease, or take on loans (they generally cannot afford or are economically unsound).


That is not the model for auto makers who profit in selling vehicles. Auto makers (and appliance makers) learned long ago to make things only good enough to last thru warranty periods and slightly beyond. Also, when things break it keeps their mechanics perpetually employed as well. They also benefit from model updates. No chance this changes IMO.


Almost entirely speculative, FYI. No rational basis for it. May as well be Tulips or fly-by-night crypto.


A rebate that will not last indefinitely and probably go away with broader EV adoption. Also, you could buy a 2010 Civic or Camry for $5-10,000 and be far, far ahead of the cost analysis vs. a $30,000 EV.


I've run the numbers, and it's fictional to believe EVs are cheaper in the long run than ICE. But it depends heavily on many variables so it is not that simple. E.G. at about year 10, plan on a $10k battery for a EV. How about special chargers at a home? How about most people don't own homes with garages so where do apartment dwellers or similar charge their EVs? Did you factor these and other variables in?


No lack of depreciation for EVs. In fact, members on this forum have reported EVs flooding the used market lots and significant depreciation. Many dealers will not take EVs. And a recent study in CA concluded that 1 in 5 EV owners went back to ICE for a host of reasons including costs, convenience, reliability, affordability, repair costs, etc.

In sum, the EV fantasy is just that. It's a delusion. These are toys for wealthy people who own multiple vehicles, or generally have very untraditional unique lifestyles and wealth that the common American does not enjoy. Americas grids and infrastructure, and the battery technology, are decades and trillions of dollars away from being able to adopt widespread EVs. If left to FAIR MARKET competition (e.g. no rebates, no tax incentives, laws banning ICE, thumbs on the scales against ICE in favor of EVs etc.) broad adoption of EVs would be unable to compete for probably another few decades.

You want to be environmentally friendly and minimalist, go buy a well maintained low mileage car from the early 2000s. Take care of it. It'll be on the roads until 2040. That is the most environmentally sound and minimalist behavior for a car owner. Or ride a bike or walk or take public transit.

I used to love the very old Honda Civics from the late 1970's and very early 1980's. The base model had a 1.3 Liter 4, with a 4 speed manual transmission and was as "base car trim level" as you could ever get. Even Consumer Reports of that day said the 1.3 Liter 4 was course and noisy. But I really liked it as it had high gas mileage and a very cheap selling price as a new car, and owning one you felt like you were buying a real economy car. It was also fun to drive. Also, in those days, Honda was the most reliable car maker, even more reliable than Toyota or Mercedes according to those early Consumer Reports magazines showing reliability.

 

[Bill7]

my parents are usually the last owner of a car. they find a cheap and somewhat cared for specimen and keep it until they don't need it anymore or it dies. they have a vw jetta (diesel) with almost 400,000 miles on it. they got it when it was like 3 years old, and they got a decent price because it had cheap steel rims and water in the fuel, so it ran bad and looked bad. they've put 320,000 miles on it since then, and get 45+ mpg out of it.

Sounds like a wise approach, especially with today's new car prices exceeding $50k.

I like to buy older high trim level cars after they have fully depreciated, with clean CarFaxes and sellers that are the original owners and who give a verbal history of the car that sounds honest and legitimate and matches the CarFax. I then try to maintain the vehicles with genuine OEM parts bought online from a brick and morter Honda Dealer in Rhode Island whose parts dept is trying to expand it's online business by selling the parts at close to wholesale prices. I then give those parts to my local mechanic to install. The only time I go to a Honda dealer is for sliding door issues, as the regular mechanics don't want to touch those.

The Honda Odysseys are prone to sludge, so during the used car inspection with the seller, I check the oil dipstick, wiping the oil off with a napkin, and see if the bare metal at end of the clean dipstick where the measurement lines are is severely stained and darkened.
I've found a few of them like this, as it most likely means sludge. I also take off the oil cap and look in oil filler hole too.
If it looks sludgy, then I don't buy the van. Sludge can mean reduced oil pressure and blocked oil passenges, and if it's been there for a long time it could mean more engine wear due to the lower oil pressure. Also it can be expensive to clean out.

 

[dumkid]

having done a sliding door on a Chrysler minivan, i can confirm that i never want to fix one again.

 

[Bill7]

having done a sliding door on a Chrysler minivan, i can confirm that i never want to fix one again.

Yes, I'm starting to stock up on the internal sliding door parts before Honda starts discontinuing those parts.
I know it sounds crazy, but I want to keep these old van's another 12 years.

 

[willbur]

One of the issues that will soon get me thrown out of the mainstream automotive media forever is my love for minimalism.

I'm not talking about a basic no-frills car. Or a general rejection of cars in favor of more environmentally sound alternatives.

For me it's all about buying cars. I believe the way most non-enthusiasts can get ahead when it comes to cars is to buy as few of them as possible, and keep holding them for as long as possible.

It's a lot like investing in the stock market. The fewer the transactions and the greater that powertrain is produced and improved on, the better the opportunity to get ahead when it comes to long-term costs and personal satisfaction.

Let me give you a personal example. When I was 21 years old, I managed to buy my first and only brand new car thanks to a windfall of profits on Chrysler stock. It was a red 1994 Toyota Camry coupe. I ended up maintaining it as well as possible and doing all the things many of us here already do when it comes to upkeep. The difference?

I didn't do it because I wanted to focus on cars in the near future.

My goal was to keep it for as long as possible and then, if I got the chance, I would also buy a 1st gen NA Mazda Miata. Those would be my only two cars for the rest of my life.

Would I have been happy 20 years later? Probably. That 1994 Toyota Camry is still on the road today with nearly 400,000 miles on it. One of the owners after it was sold decided to lop off about 200,000 miles from the odometer and reset it for 350,000 to 150,000 miles. When I finally could afford a Miata, I absolutely loved it. I loved the idea of being able to customize and upgrade it as time went on.

I know I started out as an extreme outlier, but high prices, higher interest rates, and the economics of EV ownership are changing the winds of what consumers now want. I think we're now headed for a period where automobiles will become durable goods. Instead of being owned and maintained for years. They will be kept for decades on end. I see two market forces guiding this transition.

The first is that the best chance Tesla has for dominating the car market is to eliminate the need for their owners to buy another vehicle from anyone else, and the best way to differentiate themselves beyond their current image is to offer cars that will last 300,000 to 550,000 miles which is what they already do with their late-model vehicles.

If a car can last that long, you, as someone who isn't into cars in general, you already know that manufacturer is capable of cementing a long-term relationship with your needs IF you aren't really that much into cars. It becomes the easy choice for the non-enthusiast. Just like nobody got fired for buying an IBM from the 1960s thru 1980s, and buying a Toyota usually comes down to a desire for reliability above all else, a late-model Tesla EV is already engineered for longevity and most major automakers will be follow down that exact path of rivaling durability whether they like it or not.

The other change that will gradually happen is that cars, and especially EVs, will eventually become a lot more modular than they are right now. Precious few non-enthusiasts ever bother to do more than just add a nicer radio into this car. Tomorrow's vehicles will allow for a lot more modularlity and change with the software, hardware and the interior of the automobile. EVs are far easier to make and with the powertrain tucked away underneath, the automakers will have a broader palette for customizing and upgrading their cars and trucks.

For right now, automakers want to monetize their vehicles these days by offering monthly subscriptions and getting their customers to finance for as long as possible. I think both models will fail. What will succeed are upgrades and improvements that can be offered over the course of time. The two-row crossover that can have an added third-row installed. Or captain's chairs, upgraded interior seats, dashboard materials and door panels. Upgraded entertainment packages. Improved software that can offer unique features and benefits.

If I can make my older car feel and drive like new for a lot less money than a new car, why would I bother getting rid of it?

I have worn a lot of hats over the years when it comes to the car business. Auto auctioneer. Dealer principal. Analyst. Remarketing manager. Part-owner of an auto auction. The main stumbling blocks I think most mainstream media sources can't fully understand or even accept is that most consumers don't want to be perpetual debtors. They want to be owners. BUT they still want to have that upgrade opportunity whenever that time comes.

I see this as the future for the bulk of the auto industry. Ownership. Durability. Customization that is offered by the manufacturer which trumps the need for a brand new model, and the car becoming a durable good instead of a consumable one.

I disagree with pretty much all the mainstream automotive editors and marketeers. and that's fine. They couldn't comprehend GM going bankrupt until it already happened, and they ignored Tesla's rise until their valuation went far beyond any other automaker.

Once Tesla can build EVs in the $30,000 to $35,000 range with a $7,500 rebate thrown on top, that seven year payment really only amounts to $380 a month if you assume $5,000 down and an 8% interest rate. Nearly four months of those payments every year will come from saved gas costs which will minimize repossessions. The lack of depreciation for certain EVs due to their high demand, will also favor these vehicles even more in the marketplace. This will happen for the leaders of the EV market, not everyone.

I see our industry changing this way. This may take 10 or 15 years, but we're already on the road.

Keep an old car forever? biggest advantage of a new one is the safety. Only reasons I want a new one and not having to constantly work on it

 

[John105]

Well back in late 2006 I ordered a BMW E92. Throughout that year, I thought the way to shoplift a BMW was to order a bare bones car, with leatherette, stick, sport package a MUST. Now you'd be talking about a 328k sedan for roughly $37k. Keep in mind that was a mildly loaded G35 stick sedan.

Flash forward to getting the 335i instead--I still kept options down. Premium, Sport, Cold Weather, Comfort Access. That's it. Back then, more people thought it was cleaner to not have a screen on the dash, I agreed.

The sport package I think was $1400--it had sport seats (side bolsters with adjustable thigh support--many said worth it for seats alone), staggered summer tires, sport shocks, and an EXTERNAL OIL COOLER. All that for $1400 was a no brainer. Such options don't exist today that bring value--seems all car cos make it such that you want this option, a multi thousand dollar package bundle is needed. Life marches on.

p.s. my friend said his buddy adds everything aftermarket, leather, sunroof, etc. I think that's not smart, but that buddy insists he saves money. I doubt it. That detracts from the value of any vehicle (aftermarket sunroof? is this 1975?)

 

[buster]

Buy an inexpensive four cylinder car new and run it forever?

That‘s a great plan.

Not sure the rest of the post makes sense, though, you’re projecting past success onto a future vehicle with totally different architecture and maintenance.

As much as I like cars, there are times I think to myself I should just buy a Camry/Civic and call it a day. They're all a waste of money and the novelty wears off. I'm impressed with the latest gen Honda Civic for what you get.

So far the ZR2 is my favorite car that I've had. If it proves to be reliable long term I just may keep it.

 

[John105]

That’s why they buy a car.

But the car they choose is generally driven by emotion and desire.

Very few buy the car they need and instead rationalize buying much more car than that.

Very few think the way a 20 yo today thinks. They only want to pay for what they use. In other words, why would anyone want to pay $110k for something that sits about 91% of its life, doing nothing at all? but people like myself take it to another level by having an extra car that's a garage queen. I'm not that weird, others do it. Emotion does overrule financial wisdom in such a case.

Seriously, many young people in the office with excellent salaries, have "tiny" cars. they simply don't care about them like many of us here did, at that age. Meanwhile our CFO has a Turbo S 997. Pretty sure he bought it at the sweet spot, 5 y.o., sorta also applying the not pay as much for something that is not used that much deal...(these are rarely a person's only car)

 

[Revving2Redline]

When I was 21 years old, I managed to buy my first and only brand new car thanks to a windfall of profits on Chrysler stock. It was a red 1994 Toyota Camry coupe.

I just love the thought that you're able to unload Chrysler stock and you went out and bought a Toyota! not all heroes were capes.