A car that could have saved Detroit

[StevieC]

A car that could have saved Detroit was the EV-1 by Saturn that the launched in the 90's but then they were bought off by Big Oil as shown in the DVD "Who Killed The Electric Car" and canned the project.

Now their bringing something similar back as the VOLT, but it's a Plug-In/Gas Hybrid ... Why not just redo what you had and do away with fossil fuels?

Right.. Big Oil again!

 

[StevieC]

Forgot to post the website:

http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/

 

[OVERKILL]

The EV-1 wasn't really practical though. It was really neat, but ahead of it's time. America, at that time simply would not have purchased it in enough volume for GM to justify mass production.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
A car that could have saved Detroit was the EV-1 by Saturn that the launched in the 90's but then they were bought off by Big Oil as shown in the DVD "Who Killed The Electric Car" and canned the project.

Now their bringing something similar back as the VOLT, but it's a Plug-In/Gas Hybrid ... Why not just redo what you had and do away with fossil fuels?

Right.. Big Oil again!


I just can't get into this theory. Aside from the complexity of preventing the entire industrial world, including the "non-friendlies", from developing this technology, the idea I really can't get around is that the oil companies would care that much about preventing electric cars anyway. Isn't only about 20% of the oil used for passenger vehicles? As the electric car technology becomes economically viable in a practical form - a point which seemed a long way off when gas was under $2 a gallon, let alone now - I'm sure we'd find a way to use the oil that is gradually displaced.

Originally Posted By: StevieC
We can put a man on the moon . . .


Are you sure about that?

 

[sciphi]

The car that could have saved GM is their Delta platform had it come 2 years earlier. Then they could have figured out a way to squeeze more blood from the turnip while wowing everyone with a genuinely pleasant small car. Instead they pushed that project back until MY 2005 rollout. And people would have been glad to buy the things because they're decent cars, not because they're cheap.

 

[bob_ninja]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
A car that could have saved Detroit was the EV-1 ...


How much did it cost?

Hint: So much they never priced it, only offered on lease to rich celebs.

NiMH batteries from that time were not up to the task. Even today a 16 kWh pack for Volt costs about $10K. It gives you about 40 mile range, although used in a lighter vehicle with lower max speed it might go 60 miles or more.

NiMH is useless approaching 0F. Hence all tests were in warm California and during winter the car wouldn't work in most of the NA.

Certainly EV1 pack cost at least $10K or more. Also NiMH even today is nowhere as durable as Lithium based packs. So EV1 owners would have to replace their $10K+ packs every few years.

In summary, EV1 cost 2x conventional cars, didn't work during winter except in California and south, has below 100 mile range and needs a new $10K+ pack every few years.

 

[wapacz]

"Wagoner stated that the worst decision of his tenure at GM was "axing the EV1 electric-car program and not putting the right resources into hybrids. It didn’t affect profitability, but it did affect image." The effect on the image was that the perception of GM changed from being viewed as a technology innovator, into a perception of the company as having little interest in innovation."




To me that is the biggest outcome of killing the ev1 program.

 

[BrianWC]

Yes, you're right. But at the same time, we'd all be sitting here complaining today about how GM wasted tons of money on an EV1 white elephant while Toyota and Honda made cheaper, more practical hybrid cars...

 

[BrianWC]

If it makes anyone feel better, I believe the engineer heading up the Volt is the same one who headed up the EV-1....

 

[wapacz]

Originally Posted By: BrianWC
Yes, you're right. But at the same time, we'd all be sitting here complaining today about how GM wasted tons of money on an EV1 white elephant while Toyota and Honda made cheaper, more practical hybrid cars...



If you want more fun look up the super car program.

http://www.chicagopriusgroup.com/resources/SuperCar.pdf

I still think if gore had gone for a more reasonable mpg number like Toyota did we would probably be seeing cars based off it.

 

[StevieC]

You should all look on U-Tube for the car that was designed by a guy in France. It runs on compressed air and it can go from LA to NEW YORK on a single tax of air that takes about $2.00 of hydro to compress. It was on a show called Beyond Tomorrow... I will see if I can find a link. This is an awesome idea!

 

[StevieC]

Here is the Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0KXrDpowJk

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
You should all look on U-Tube for the car that was designed by a guy in France. It runs on compressed air and it can go from LA to NEW YORK on a single tax of air that takes about $2.00 of hydro to compress. It was on a show called Beyond Tomorrow... I will see if I can find a link. This is an awesome idea!


You may be quoting correctly, but I've gotta throw a flag on that idea. First, consider the amount of energy required to move a car, any car, from coast to coast. For most cars, that would end up being somewhere between five and ten tanks full of gasoline. That's a simply tremendous amount of energy. To pack all that into a compressed air reservoir would require not only very heavy equipment to pump the air into the car, but also very, very heavy tanks to contain the vast pressures that would result from compressing air into a volume that would fit into a passenger car. Then there's the danger factor. The handling of liquid gasoline will be child's play compared to the safely containing the pressures that would be involved in compressing enough air to move a car across the continent on one fill. I could be wrong, and I'm not an engineer, but I just don't see this happening with our present technology, or anything that's possible in the foreseeable future.

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
I could be wrong, and I'm not an engineer


Oh...

 

[StevieC]

Watch the video on You-Tube... It's from a broad casted show that shows the car working and how far it goes!

 

[StevieC]

I was poking around the Net some more apparently this is possible and has been done before with other developers... Thank god for "Out of the Box" thinking in Europe!

 

[PandaBear]

SteveC,

You have no idea what you are talking about.

We used to have an EV1 donated to us in the lab from GM in 97-98. That car was too unique, range too short, and battery too heavy as a production worthy car. As a small batch vehicle, you will not be able to support it for 10 years and the build condition is more golf cart than a car.

If they waited 3-4 more years or continue the effort, like the way Japanese government subsidize the Insight and Prius development cost, then it MAY be near the 1st gen Prius quality.

No sane person can make it profitable in the US market at the time, because oil was not expensive enough. If it wasn't for the Japanese government Prius may not be so reliable and so affordable today.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: bob_ninja
Originally Posted By: StevieC
A car that could have saved Detroit was the EV-1 ...


How much did it cost?

Hint: So much they never priced it, only offered on lease to rich celebs.

NiMH batteries from that time were not up to the task. Even today a 16 kWh pack for Volt costs about $10K. It gives you about 40 mile range, although used in a lighter vehicle with lower max speed it might go 60 miles or more.

NiMH is useless approaching 0F. Hence all tests were in warm California and during winter the car wouldn't work in most of the NA.

Certainly EV1 pack cost at least $10K or more. Also NiMH even today is nowhere as durable as Lithium based packs. So EV1 owners would have to replace their $10K+ packs every few years.

In summary, EV1 cost 2x conventional cars, didn't work during winter except in California and south, has below 100 mile range and needs a new $10K+ pack every few years.


EV1 was using lead acid battery set in a "T" shaped array, 1 row behind both seats, and a column between the 2 seats. At the time we figure it will cost about $7-12k max, but the 100 miles range was for a new pack, and when the car gets old you can drop it to 40-60 miles.

Your observation of NiMH is partly correct. Most car with NiMH are temp controlled (hence a vent from inside the car) and current controlled to keep it between 40-60% charge. In the worst case, you only need to start the engine first to warm up the battery. Not environmental? Sure, but it won't get you stuck up north.

We got a set of battery from Ovonics (NiMH) that was about $200k in 98, and has about 16kWH, and stable enough that you can drop it in the swimming pool full of chlorine and it will still not pop or short.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
You should all look on U-Tube for the car that was designed by a guy in France. It runs on compressed air and it can go from LA to NEW YORK on a single tax of air that takes about $2.00 of hydro to compress. It was on a show called Beyond Tomorrow... I will see if I can find a link. This is an awesome idea!


If you watch the video, the 4,500km is allegedly the distance to get out of a "tank of petrol" when running in hybrid mode.

The 180Kg of compressed air is "only" good for 200km, and is the $2 of electricity that is claimed.

Bearing in mind that electricity is 14c/kwhr, there's 12KwHr invested in the pumping up. Even at 100 percent efficiency, that's about the energy contained in a Kg of petrol (1.3 litres), and obtained from the equivalent of burning 5.3Kg of coal.

I think the inventor is hyping up the potential some, and Beyond Tomorrow always seems to add a "too good to be true" factor.

 

[wapacz]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: bob_ninja
Originally Posted By: StevieC
A car that could have saved Detroit was the EV-1 ...


How much did it cost?

Hint: So much they never priced it, only offered on lease to rich celebs.

NiMH batteries from that time were not up to the task. Even today a 16 kWh pack for Volt costs about $10K. It gives you about 40 mile range, although used in a lighter vehicle with lower max speed it might go 60 miles or more.

NiMH is useless approaching 0F. Hence all tests were in warm California and during winter the car wouldn't work in most of the NA.

Certainly EV1 pack cost at least $10K or more. Also NiMH even today is nowhere as durable as Lithium based packs. So EV1 owners would have to replace their $10K+ packs every few years.

In summary, EV1 cost 2x conventional cars, didn't work during winter except in California and south, has below 100 mile range and needs a new $10K+ pack every few years.


EV1 was using lead acid battery set in a "T" shaped array, 1 row behind both seats, and a column between the 2 seats. At the time we figure it will cost about $7-12k max, but the 100 miles range was for a new pack, and when the car gets old you can drop it to 40-60 miles.

Your observation of NiMH is partly correct. Most car with NiMH are temp controlled (hence a vent from inside the car) and current controlled to keep it between 40-60% charge. In the worst case, you only need to start the engine first to warm up the battery. Not environmental? Sure, but it won't get you stuck up north.

We got a set of battery from Ovonics (NiMH) that was about $200k in 98, and has about 16kWH, and stable enough that you can drop it in the swimming pool full of chlorine and it will still not pop or short.


I thought the first set were lead acid and the second set moved to NimH