Gary, I agree. Good point. I think in some ways it's good what they do like uniforms. Kind of evens the playing field a bit so kids aren't picking on the ones that are less fortunate and don't have all the trendy clothes etc. Kids can be mean. Very mean. We don't need to witness more Columbine events.
A big school decision.....
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Pablo, to free up time for yourself, why don't you get this boyfriend doing yard work for a few bucks. He might learn something from the experience. Another note for new parents. IMO, put your kid in every activity you can afford. Soccer, ball, band, gymnastics, martial arts, dance, whatever. The fees kill us and we run around like idiots, but our kids don't have time to get bored and they learn what it takes to succeed (or fail) at a given activity. My kids are still young, but hopefully this pays dividends one day.
That would kill him.
This is good advice that we realized with the first one at about 4 years. She is in fast pitch softball (three games this week)........so lest you think she's not sometimes active. But yes this take my time, too.
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OMG!
They have all changed so much.
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Tee hee, how true. However, that's only a positive "training" aspect to the immediate degree the student perceives needing the system's cooperation and the level of cognitive dissonance they can operate with (among other things). It's very much a question of motivation. I made it half way through my junior year in such a system before getting expelled. I wasn't thinking about college at all. There were really only two authority figures in my life at the time whose impressions I cared about at all (both teachers and both the Sidney Poitier types), and that's probably the only reason I made it that far. "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is definitely not always accurate. Luckily I turned out alright in the end, partially because my grandfather stepped in and saved my - - - - - -. I actually had an extremely high GPA going into college because I cheated on all of my home schooling courses. I've always been happiest being a slightly slinky turd. Don't think I'll ever change.
Pablo, have you thought about any more about the positive aspects of the pizza-eating mongrel? How does he make her happy? There's got to be some reason she wants to be with him. Your daughter is (almost certainly) looking at the relationship primarily from a micro level (like kids do), and you're (almost certainly) looking at the relationship primarily from a macro level (like... uh, some adults do), which is probably painfully obvious at this point. I don't think you're going to make a 14 year old think like a 40-something year old with a few long talks; it doesn't matter how great of a dad you are or what Jedi mind tricks you know.
In my experience, the "hostile dad" approach almost never works unless you are sincerely draconian (and by "works" I only mean scare away the current suitor... pyrrhic victory warning). There are enough movie plots that follow the same story line you should at least think twice about it.
If I was your daughter and I didn't think you had a clue why we were happy together, I wouldn’t listen to a thing you say. If, in my mind, you had no clue how good the "good" was, how would I know that all these abstract (abstract to me if not you) "bad" concepts you're alerting me to are so truly bad as to ultimately outweigh what I know for sure I like? You wouldn’t be qualified to make a risk-benefit assessment (in my mind). The ironic fact that you can likely "objectively" obliterate a good deal of the arguments she throws out with your seasoned perspective means nothing if she can't grasp your "objectivity" with the same precision you wield it with... and she almost certainly can't at her age, to say nothing of how people's life experiences differ dramatically anyway. Does your daughter really understand that you understand? How does she know that you can see both the good and bad aspects of her relationship (and are only then qualified to make a meaningful assessment of it)? Again, the issue really isn't if you can... if you can (if you can't then that is an issue). The issue is if she can imagine you can.
Anyone who's dated "unconventionally" will tell you that the people you trust to tell you bad news are the ones who you perceive are able to appreciate your position, because they know what you have to lose by hearing it. Sometimes later in "the game" you seek out the advice of dissimilar people who can provide you with balance if you are aware of a bias in your own judgment. This is probably not an option your daughter is exercising heavily right now. People her age have a lot of strange wiring in their heads that doesn't allow them to do that.
The "embrace the boyfriend" tactic has some merit in my opinion, up to a point. The place where I would part with some folks is in a truly unconditional acceptance of the boyfriend. Do you absolutely not care who she dates? (You might say you don't care who she dates as long as she is happy, but that would introduce a condition.) Unconditional hate makes no sense either, because she obviously wants to be with him for some reason (there are probably lots of reasons), and you will just invalidate her positive experiences. If she goes out to a concert with boy wonder and they have a great time together, then they have a great time together. A "yeah, but..." response after something like that is shooting yourself in the foot. You'll confuse the - - - - - - out of her (or maybe you won't, I'm not sure which would be worse). That's like telling someone that they're confused about being hot or cold. Maybe they don't understand the full ramifications of what took place for whatever reason (good place to step in if and when appropriate), but they surely have a reasonably clear picture of what registered with them, unless they truly have no confidence in their own judgment.
Nothing screams "I don't understand you" like preaching the evils of loser boy after she comes home with memories of the great time they were having together. It's not that you can't appreciate the nature of her experiences (and then some) and still understand that in short order, this guy is going to drag her down to his level (and if he's not a terrible person in and of himself, then drag her into a world where it is hard for her to function). You fooled around when you were a kid too right? You remember it was fun then, you remember some of the bad stuff later on, you've seen what happens when certain types of people get together, etc. Since you have grown into the ability to reflect on your own life experience, you might be able to reasonably assume without any kind of class bias that in the end, his influence will cause her more pain than pleasure. THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE. If your powers of observation were in question, then someone could most certainly argue that your inabilities complicate things, but I'm making the assumption that you don't have a completely unfounded objection to any group of people, among other things that could skew your vision. The main issue, then, is that she doesn't believe you. This is a relatively simple problem in isolation if you truly don't carry an unusually irrational perspective and are truly trying to help her achieve happiness on her own terms, in whatever kind of relationship that happens to be: if your effort is genuinely geared to her benefit, the problem is that she can't take your perspective.
Examples of things that would lead her to believe "I know about the good stuff": you were there when they were having fun. You display behaviors around her boyfriend that are similar to the ones she displays in a given context (e.g. you chat about something normal or fun with him). You display behaviors around her that are similar to the ones she displays in reaction to something positive regarding her boyfriend (e.g. you kiss your wife like she... gulp... kisses him). You display sympathy when she tells you what a fun time she had with her boyfriend that day. You share stories about your relationships that parallel with hers (effective to the degree her imagination can extrapolate that image of you). You have an open ear when she tells you about the good stuff. You present a logical analysis of the situation (good luck doing this with a 14 year old).
Examples of things that would lead her to believe "I know about the bad stuff": you were there when they had a fight. You display behaviors around her boyfriend that are similar to the ones she displays (e.g. you are harsh with him if he does something truly inappropriate).You display behaviors around her that are similar to the ones she displays in reaction to something negative regarding her boyfriend (you appear distraught when someone hurts you). You display sympathy when she tells you what an awful time she had with her boyfriend that day. You share stories about your relationships that parallel with hers (again, effective to the degree her imagination can extrapolate that image of you). You have an open ear when she tells you about the bad stuff. You present a logical analysis of the situation (again, good luck doing this with a 14 year old... actually, good luck doing this with anyone).
Keep in mind that these would be more "grown-up" and personalized versions, but she should be able to see the resemblance. Once she's got the idea that you can appreciate the positive and the negative, then you will be qualified in her mind (which is where it counts) to weigh the positive pile against the negative pile and create a meaningful assessment. Then (if I were her), I would believe you. The reason the "embrace the boyfriend/polite restraint" tactic can have a relatively high success rate in certain situations is because you’re developing the "I know about the good stuff" image in her head while probably still secretly holding onto and projecting your real feelings that this guy is just as much a douchebag as he ever was, which is where the "I know about the bad stuff" half of the image comes from. Different way through the woods, same result. The world won't come to an end if you develop your own perspective a little either.
That, of course, is assuming the perspective of the parents even matters to the child to any meaningful degree in the first place (and the same goes for all the rest of this).
I'm not telling you this is a magic bullet. You and your wife's prior and current credibility with her, the amount of time you can invest, your consistency, your degree of influence in general, her "emotional" issues, culture, religious values, mistaken assumptions, etc., etc., etc. could all be confounding variables that limit the measure of your success. YMMV x 1000. What I can tell you with a reasonable degree of certainty is that this is how this particular piece of this particular system works most of the time.
The larger idea here is that you help someone develop a trust in their own judgments. You're not always going to be there to slay the ham-sandwich monster. The goal in my mind is that you want her to A) trust herself and B) look for help when she knows she needs it. When she can call a spade a spade, dad can just sip tropical drinks by the pool instead of worrying about the next loser trying to deceive her. Yeah... it's not that simple. None of this is that simple. However, if your energy is invested in telling her she's mistaken about how she experiences people, places, things, and events all the time, you're headed down the opposite track you should be, IMO. Showing (talk is cheap) her that her experiences are valid, but using your seat of fatherly wisdom to gently point out ways of organizing (in her mind) those experiences which may be dysfunctional for her (ways which are dysfunctional meaning ways that obstruct her from obtaining, maintaining, and completing her system of goals over the course of her life) is a different story altogether, and something that any responsible parent should have a hand in, in my opinion.
Yeeesh, kids. Yeeesh, people. Well, that’s about all the one-shot goodness I can cram into a screen worth of writing. I hope these bits and pieces from my head/life are able to give you a start somewhere. Over and out. Best of luck.
Pablo,
I think we are all missing the point to a degree. The way a girl learns to be a woman is taught by her mother not enforced by her father. You are her protector. Her mother is her teacher. Think about it.... Re-enforce the mother daughter relationship. Send them on a weekend together just the 2 of them then send Guido over to the bfs house.
I think we are all missing the point to a degree. The way a girl learns to be a woman is taught by her mother not enforced by her father. You are her protector. Her mother is her teacher. Think about it.... Re-enforce the mother daughter relationship. Send them on a weekend together just the 2 of them then send Guido over to the bfs house.
I didn't mean for any of that to be especially personal, you could swap "dad" and "daughter" for just about anything there; it was only intended to be a very general commentary about one kind of trust, and certainly one open to debate. I really wasn't even speaking directly to Pablo, though I did think it might pertain to his situation. It's a public forum, and it's a common issue. You can apply whatever I said to whatever kind of family structure or lack thereof you want and you'll get what you get (spoken to "alternate Frank").
In the last paragraph you should probably change "gently" to "skillfully" to clarify what I meant. I do make an effort to pick out good words, but sometimes you still end up with a bit of me in the writing when I get going like that. I'm not referring to slapping everyone silly, but rather acting and reacting appropriately. That's all. We actually have a running gag in my circle about rich university professors who can't control their kids that always go: "oh Johnny please don't!" while their kid is drinking gasoline and breaking windows with their fists (the voice inflection is what doubles everyone over). If you get something out of this kind of thing then that's great; if a XXL post just burns your bacon, then I'm sorry, but I do make an effort to not offend without merit.
Happy landings folks.
In the last paragraph you should probably change "gently" to "skillfully" to clarify what I meant. I do make an effort to pick out good words, but sometimes you still end up with a bit of me in the writing when I get going like that. I'm not referring to slapping everyone silly, but rather acting and reacting appropriately. That's all. We actually have a running gag in my circle about rich university professors who can't control their kids that always go: "oh Johnny please don't!" while their kid is drinking gasoline and breaking windows with their fists (the voice inflection is what doubles everyone over). If you get something out of this kind of thing then that's great; if a XXL post just burns your bacon, then I'm sorry, but I do make an effort to not offend without merit.
Happy landings folks.
I have 3 girls ( why I am grey prematurely) and one in particular has had serious mental,emotional,addiction, relationship issues.
PRAY,stand tough but loving,allow HER decision results to be felt by HER( do not enable or insulate her).
A 14 year old still needs guidance and protection FROM 17 year old BOYS, WORLD,SCHOOL,SEX,DRUGS,ROCK & ROLL, and SATAN ( I am not kidding)all want a piece of her and all that stands between those influences that really cares for her best interest is You and Mom, as designed by Yahweh.
You cannot be her friend right now and her brain is disconnected from appropriate judgment for the time being.
You are a C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N family so you and Her are under attack no doubt.
My 14 almost 15 year old is not allowed to date or be alone with any Guy and I am a baseball bat carrying but lovingly engaged Papa who is in her business and closely attached to her BOY friend all the time. He really likes me.....
She will be allowed to date alone at 18 and Momma backs me 100%.
You are a good man and will be in my prayers for this too,..... man your neck is wearing us out....
Terry
PRAY,stand tough but loving,allow HER decision results to be felt by HER( do not enable or insulate her).
A 14 year old still needs guidance and protection FROM 17 year old BOYS, WORLD,SCHOOL,SEX,DRUGS,ROCK & ROLL, and SATAN ( I am not kidding)all want a piece of her and all that stands between those influences that really cares for her best interest is You and Mom, as designed by Yahweh.
You cannot be her friend right now and her brain is disconnected from appropriate judgment for the time being.
You are a C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N family so you and Her are under attack no doubt.
My 14 almost 15 year old is not allowed to date or be alone with any Guy and I am a baseball bat carrying but lovingly engaged Papa who is in her business and closely attached to her BOY friend all the time. He really likes me.....
She will be allowed to date alone at 18 and Momma backs me 100%.You are a good man and will be in my prayers for this too,..... man your neck is wearing us out....
Terry
Obviously the baseball bat reference would evidence that there are some lessons you don’t want your child to learn the hard way. Being nice guys and Christians, I’m sure you and Pablo would probably do something like Jules does before you take it out on the bad apple though.
I agree that there are plenty of bad things in the world, and as I said, informing her about ineffective ways of seeing and interacting with the world is an important part of parenting in my opinion. Just don’t (sincerely do not intend for this to sound loaded) miss the other half of the picture and forget to inform her about effective ways of seeing and interacting with the world, just like my main point about validating both her good and bad experiences. The tendency for a lot of people is to concentrate too heavily on one, and it backfires. That’s really all I’m trying to get at.
I agree that there are plenty of bad things in the world, and as I said, informing her about ineffective ways of seeing and interacting with the world is an important part of parenting in my opinion. Just don’t (sincerely do not intend for this to sound loaded) miss the other half of the picture and forget to inform her about effective ways of seeing and interacting with the world, just like my main point about validating both her good and bad experiences. The tendency for a lot of people is to concentrate too heavily on one, and it backfires. That’s really all I’m trying to get at.
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