99 Lumina 3.1 13m/11.5k SSO 0w-30 - issues

[Gary Allan]

This is a customer's car. Given the historic vulnerability of the LIM gaskets, I performed a UOA upon changing her oil about 13 months ago. Her car was indeed suffering from the condition and I discussed options with her. She opted for the ginger root method as long as the condition appeared to be contained. A 6 month UOA was performed to see how things were going. The condition, although present, appeared somewhat in control.

Interesting, and probably pertinent, side note: Upon going over the car, I used my ultra sonic leak detector that I got at salvage off of ebay. Great tool. Anyway, I found that the neck on the PCV valve fitted elbow was cracked. A decent amount of unfiltered air was being sucked into the engine. I can't speculate how much of the wear markers can be attributed to it, but keep that in mind when looking at the numbers.

Blackstone's comments: GARY: Metals jumped up again, and potassium, sodium, and silicon show that coolant was in the oil as of
the sample date. Coolant affects the lubricity of the oil, which accelerates engine wear. Lead, iron, and
aluminum all read above average. Lead is a bearing material, as are copper and iron. Iron can also show
wear at a steel part (cylinders, valve train, rods & shafts), while aluminum most likely shows wear at pistons.
Coolant accounts for the thick viscosity. Monitor oil pressure and coolant levels. Caution! Suggest shorter oil
changes to monitor.

I imagine that the UA is based somewhere between 3500-5500

Miles on car: 174,495
Miles on oil: 11,276
Make up oil: 1 quart (was also down 1/2 quart) 1.5 quarts consumed
Air filter: New(er) but unknown (some service outfit got her)
Oil filter: EaO

Format: this/6month/first/UA

Miles/ 11,276/5500/?

Al 13/5/14/3
Chr 2/1/2/1
Fe 41/20/38/15
Cu 19/11/15/10
Tin 4/0/3/1
Pb 35/7/23/6
Mol 10/7/20/71
MAN 1/0/1/1
POT 84/42/98/2
Bor 11/9/16/33
Sil 31/26/26/15
Sod 50/27/67/18
CALC 4084/3723/3471/1909
MAG 52/46/140/146
PHOS 751/659/788/692
ZINC 944/808/976/850

SUS Viscosity @ 210°F 65.7/61.5/73.2(TSO)
cSt Viscosity @ 100°C 11.79/10.65/13.79
Flashpoint in °F 420/390/415
Antifreeze % POS/POS/0.13%
Insolubles % .3/.5/.4


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During this service the cooling system was flushed and new PG based coolant installed with a double dose of the ginger root sealer (Bars Leaks).

Oil was replaced with Amsoil HDD 5w30.


I'm uncertain what reductions in wear will be seen with the repair of the PCV elbow. While some reductions in Fe may be possible (in viewing) the Al/Cr just don't seem to be that out of whack. I don't know how much I can attribute to dirt infiltration over this mileage/time span. Pb and Cu stick out good enough ..as does Potassium.

I will again discuss the options with the customer. This is a 10 year old chassis with 175k on it. I noted some weepage from the radiator upon flushing ..but no leaking was present and the system held pressure well. I advised her that a new radiator was probably needed in the next year. The car is exceptionally clean. She's been advised of the LIM recommended repair for this and has been given the price of $500 from my reliable "Mr. Zippy" upscale service provider.

Comments are, as always, welcome.

 

[Cutehumor]

I would have the intake gaskets done asap if she plans on keeping the vehicle.

 

[addyguy]

It looks like you are on the right track, Gary. With all the insults this oil has had to endure, wear isn't that bad at all, I think. Its been said a hundred times before, but Amsoil makes a darn tough oil - kudos to them!

3.1 V-6's are pretty sturdy engines (with the obvious exception), so if you kept up with this regime, and wear metals stayed roughly the same, the engine would most likely last to 250k miles. I agree that it is questionable to spend $500 or more (with the rad replacement) on a 10-year old, 175k car.

Hopefully, the PCV fix, higher dose of leak fix, and the slightly heavier-duty Amsoil 5w30 will help reduce wear a bit. I'd keep the intervals under 12k miles. This may be the best 'balancing act' we have ever seen here for keeping a car running with obvios problem w/o doing major repairs.

Thanks for keeping us updated on this - looking forward to the next UOA!

 

[Gary Allan]

If it were mine, I'd do all of it ..but I know I can do most of the stuff at 30%-60% of the retail tab for the future stuff that will fatigue just due to old age. I'd get another 10 years out of the thing. She's a 20something svelte babe that's doing what 20somethings do in social distractions. I'm impressed that she has the sense to take this stuff seriously. She's conflicted, as one would expect. She says that when I say it's critical, that she'll just slap it on the plastic and have it done. That kinda put the burden on me to set when to throw in the towel.

I'll see how this round does at the 6 month mark and go from there. I'll probably switch her to a cheaper product. I don't think I can get a 6 month OCI to work out cheaper for her ...but it may make for better numbers beyond the halving factor. I imagine a few things are progressive in nature.

 

[daman]

Those 31's are tough engines when fixed right with the right fel-pro gaskets,we have many in our family,one my brothers wife's '94 GA has OVER 310,000 miles,gaskets done by me @92,000 with a steady diet of M1 and UPF52 filter's,all others with waaay over 100,000 and going strong,the body will fall off first. If she fixes the gaskets right someday she won't need a new car for many years.

 

[addyguy]

I bet ACD at 6-month intervals would work out cheaper, and still protect well. Might be worth a shot....

 

[Jaymus]

Wow, that is a [censored] of a burden. As we all know, this is a common problem. I've seen them sludge an engine up real good with milky coolant/oil mix. And I've seen the lucky ones that leak externally.

Is she having to top off her coolant system? Or is it not that noticeable, yet? I know it's not a lot of coolant, or that engine would be destroyed.

 

[slalom44]

Wow, what a dilemna..... It's like a person continuing to smoke because they don't have cancer yet.

Thanks for sharing. I hope she feels lucky, because if her head gasket is leaking, I would expect it to gradually get worse.

But if she's a hottie, it probably won't matter in the long run. She may be hoping for its demise so she can justify some new wheels.

 

[RGrant]

Originally Posted By: Jaymus
Wow, that is a [censored] of a burden. As we all know, this is a common problem. I've seen them sludge an engine up real good with milky coolant/oil mix. And I've seen the lucky ones that leak externally.

Is she having to top off her coolant system? Or is it not that noticeable, yet? I know it's not a lot of coolant, or that engine would be destroyed.


Worse yet, its probably DEX-COOL which is now creating its own set of issues. She either needs to sink money in the LIM gaskets and cleaning up the cooling system, or just drive it until it pukes.

 

[Al]

"Danger Will Robinson..danger!!@!"...This won't end well. As an owner of 2- 3.1's and familiarity with the 3.4 ..hang on.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Is she having to top off her coolant system? Or is it not that noticeable, yet? I know it's not a lot of coolant, or that engine would be destroyed.


She has noted no coolant loss. The visual appearance is acceptable. No emulsified oil/coolant formations.

 

[addyguy]

That, combined with the actual Sodium and Potassium numbers in the UOA, mean this is either a very minor leak, or it is being very well controlled by the stop-leak products. Some of them do work very well, and it 'may' keep this old beast going until the owner is sick of it.....

Gary: Any thoughts on the use of ACD to bring down the cost of the oil change, yet still retain decent protection in a 6-month OCI?

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, you have to reason that ACD is about $2 cheaper a quart ..but at twice the interval it would have to be $4.xx/quart to save money. Now to reduce the impact of any coolant festering in there???...

 

[benjamming]

How long does she want to keep the car? If for a long time, just fix the leak now. There is no sense in making the car suffer.

 

[Gary Allan]

It appears that what she really wants to do it keep going on in this manner.

 

[addyguy]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, you have to reason that ACD is about $2 cheaper a quart ..but at twice the interval it would have to be $4.xx/quart to save money. Now to reduce the impact of any coolant festering in there???...

Sorry to be daft, but I don't get it.

Right now, you and your client are doing 6-month OCI's, between 10-12k miles, on SSO and now HDD. You had said you don't know if you can get the cost of a six-month OCI any lower for her.

So, if you switched to using ACD with the same interval, you save her money, as ACD is cheaper, for both initial fill, and top-off. It would easily survive that interval just as well as HDD; as it has the same TBN of 12.2.

Might be worth a try?

 

[Gary Allan]

Oh..I see. No. She did a one year OCI with SSO. I did an intermediate sample drawn with a pump. That's the same oil @ 11.xK

 

[addyguy]

Oh, Okay. Now I see.

It would be a BIT more expensive overall, but I wonder if XL 10W-40 at 6-month intervals would provide better protection and consumption?

 

[Gary Allan]

I'm sure that there's a progressive insult that would be less overall if cut off at the median. That's what the 6 month shows. It's not so bad. She's currently assembling estimates for the job. It can be done for around $500. I feel bad that I haven't stayed fresh on doing this kind of work. Just a few too many minor complications for me to encounter as a weekend shade tree wrench. No job is straight forward.

 

[Rabbler]

It's not like you haven't given her ample time to save up for the repair...
Anyone else think it's interesting the "Amsoil guy " is using Blackstone vs Oil Analyzers for UOI???