99 Camry v6, high HC at low rpm

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: ThurzNite
I just put in some new sparks. I noticed Cyl 5 spark plug had oil around the crush ring. This's so weird because I just changed the seals when I did the timing chain and valve covers early this year. All 5 other sparks were dry.

Re-tested the coils and wires, all were well within specs.

I pulled out the EGR and cleaned it out. I forgot to clean out the corresponding ports the EGR attaches to. I'll get back to that tomorrow, then test the EGR with vacuum pump.

Any thoughts on running a mixture of e85 with 87octane?


E 85 will probably help pass the test, you probably only need a 50% mix to regular 87. Ethanol has far less carbon and hydrogen than gasoline, should keep the hydrocarbons down! Did you verify the engine is getting up to temp?

 

[ThurzNite]

Originally Posted By: spasm3
Originally Posted By: ThurzNite
I just put in some new sparks. I noticed Cyl 5 spark plug had oil around the crush ring. This's so weird because I just changed the seals when I did the timing chain and valve covers early this year. All 5 other sparks were dry.

Re-tested the coils and wires, all were well within specs.

I pulled out the EGR and cleaned it out. I forgot to clean out the corresponding ports the EGR attaches to. I'll get back to that tomorrow, then test the EGR with vacuum pump.

Any thoughts on running a mixture of e85 with 87octane?


E 85 will probably help pass the test, you probably only need a 50% mix to regular 87. Ethanol has far less carbon and hydrogen than gasoline, should keep the hydrocarbons down! Did you verify the engine is getting up to temp?


I don't have an obd2 plug-in data recorder. Any other way to verify operating temp?

 

[Turk]

E85 to help pass smog? You did a tune-up + the other things, I'd go with that 1st.

Hey, did you change the PCV Valve?

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2

I hope no harm was done by the Seafoam ingestion.


Sigh....I know that now, painfully so...

The upstream AF/o2 sensor could be lazy. Replacing it may help

 

[ThurzNite]

Originally Posted By: tpitcher
E85 to help pass smog? Hey, did you change the PCV Valve?


Reading online about E85 and smog. Some say it makes the car run lean, which's good, but my NOx is already pretty high, would it make the NOx go even higher by running lean?

After I failed the smog, I changed the PCV and cleared the tube, ready to go there!

 

[ThurzNite]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: mechtech2

I hope no harm was done by the Seafoam ingestion.


Sigh....I know that now, painfully so...

The upstream AF/o2 sensor could be lazy. Replacing it may help


Are you saying SeaFoam messed something up?! Eeek!

I can only find 2 O2 sensors, 1 for each exhaust bank. I thought I'd find another right before the CAT, but none there. When I went to the autopart store, they asked about upstream/downstream, front/rear. I'm confused, how many O2 sensors do I have? When I looked it up on www.toyodiy.com, this's what it gives me. But all 3 part numbers point to the same 2 sensors on the y-pipe. So confused...

89465 SENSOR, OXYGEN
89465‑06020 REAR 1 $249.91
89465‑06030 PART NUMBER LABEL=89465-06030, FRONT 2 $249.91
89465‑33180 PART NUMBER LABEL=89465-33180, FRONT 2 $249.91

89467B SENSOR, AIR FUEL RATIO
Not applicable

Now according to this, I have 4 O2 sensors: http://www.oxygensensors.com/catalog.php?&pkey=1357556&application=Calif-ESV

 

[ThurzNite]

Still trying to figure out what I have/need. Front = Upstream, right?
My car has the California emissions sticker, so I need Air Fuel sensor, not Oxygen sensor. But according to my VIN, the Toyota database says I need O2, not A/F.
Finally, do I need to change out the O2 sensor after the cat?

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: ThurzNite
Still trying to figure out what I have/need. Front = Upstream, right?
My car has the California emissions sticker, so I need Air Fuel sensor, not Oxygen sensor. But according to my VIN, the Toyota database says I need O2, not A/F.
Finally, do I need to change out the O2 sensor after the cat?

Check the # of wires on the back of the sensor. If there are 5 wires, it is an A/F sensor. If there are not 5 wires, it is an O2 sensor.

Or you could find a part number on the factory sensor, write it down, and give it to the Toyota dealer.

 

[ThurzNite]

Well I gave up... The sticker on the hood says Cali, but I only have 1 cat. I'm reading online that Toyota Cali models have additional cats on each exhaust bank, which I definitely don't have. I've emailed Toyota Corporate my VIN and waiting to hear back.

Looking at the existing sensors, they look like they have 4 wires. I remember replacing 1 of the sensors, I don't remember if it was the 1 by the firewall or by the radiator, but by the color of the wires and sheathing, both very clean, maybe I changed them both already? I'm going to assume I did, because in my records I show I changed an O2 (definitely bought an O2 because I didn't know about A/F till now) back in March of this year.

Would it make a difference if I used an O2 instead of A/F? I've never thrown an o2/af related code since March.

Also, the downstream sensor after the cat under the car... that looks original and dirty, should I replace that one too?

 

[LeakySeals]

Attempting to keep this short:

Your catalytic converter(s) should be able to deal with excess emissions including HC. You failed so it could be tuning, catalytic converter(s) lost efficiency, or the fuel mix is off. The upstream/precat o2 monitors exhaust for HC, reports to ECM, fuel mixture is trimmed. The downstream 02 sensor sends another report, the ECM compares the two to determine catalyst efficiency. The Efficiency is a number programmed into the ECM. When that number is exceeded you get a CEL code P0420. If that number is lower than the emission test, you could fail HC with no CEL and the problem is the cat needs to be replaced. Or the upstream o2 has become fouled or lazy, setting the car to run to rich. Or the tuneup you are doing.

On to seafoam. If there is a question about catalyst efficiency the last thing you would want to do is add additional load to the catalyst media. catalyst media is a honeycomb made of (i forget) that heats up like a furnace burns off additional HC lowering emissions. Seafoam has a high % of some type of lubricant. Very high flashpoint, so high you see a white cloud out of the exhaust during a "seafoaming". So if seafoam doesnt completely burn off during combustion, theres no way the cat can deal with that. The enemy of a cat is oil and lubricant. The cats surface becomes contaminated and it loses efficiency. Pilot light goes out. You also have a nice coating on your 02 sensors, takes a long time to evaporate. May attract and foul. I got a P0420 immediately after seafoaming, how I know this. Had to replace the cat and clean the O2's. Happened to me, didnt happen to others so dont worry about it.

The prices you gave are expensive, Rockauto has denso OEM far less than that HERE Whats confusing is you need to know if the car was made in US or Japan. Then, whether its a California "spec". Plug your VIN in HERE see what you get.

 

[ThurzNite]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Attempting to keep this short:
Whats confusing is you need to know if the car was made in US or Japan. Then, whether its a California "spec". Plug your VIN in HERE see what you get.


Whenever I plug in the VIN into websites, it comes back as FED. Physically, I think it's FED as I only have 1 sensor on each bank, and 1 after the CAT. Also physically I only have 1 CAT, and no CAT in the banks.

What throws me off is, there's a Cali emissions sticker on the hood. The car was originally purchased in NY, which I think use Cali emissions. Anyways, tomorrow finishing cleaning out the egr tubes and smogging, let's see what happens! Thanks all!

 

[91344George]

Originally Posted By: ThurzNite
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Attempting to keep this short:
Whats confusing is you need to know if the car was made in US or Japan. Then, whether its a California "spec". Plug your VIN in HERE see what you get.


Whenever I plug in the VIN into websites, it comes back as FED. Physically, I think it's FED as I only have 1 sensor on each bank, and 1 after the CAT. Also physically I only have 1 CAT, and no CAT in the banks.

What throws me off is, there's a Cali emissions sticker on the hood. The car was originally purchased in NY, which I think use Cali emissions. Anyways, tomorrow finishing cleaning out the egr tubes and smogging, let's see what happens! Thanks all!


Could it be that the hood was a replacement from another car?

It is true that NY, MA, CT, and a few other states use CA emissions regs though.

 

[ThurzNite]

Originally Posted By: 91344George
Originally Posted By: ThurzNite
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Attempting to keep this short:
Whats confusing is you need to know if the car was made in US or Japan. Then, whether its a California "spec". Plug your VIN in HERE see what you get.


Whenever I plug in the VIN into websites, it comes back as FED. Physically, I think it's FED as I only have 1 sensor on each bank, and 1 after the CAT. Also physically I only have 1 CAT, and no CAT in the banks.

What throws me off is, there's a Cali emissions sticker on the hood. The car was originally purchased in NY, which I think use Cali emissions. Anyways, tomorrow finishing cleaning out the egr tubes and smogging, let's see what happens! Thanks all!


Could it be that the hood was a replacement from another car?


You're a genius. I bought the car used, the previous owner hit a dear, I have a repair receipt but doesn't specify what exactly was repaired/replaced. Thanks.

BTW, going to smog test in about 2-3 hours. The EGR port into the intake manifold was pretty clogged. Basically a 1/2" input hole from the EGR goes down to 1/4" hole in the intake manifold. Weird design. Cleaned out the EGR and other tubes. It's blowing out a bit of white exhaust, probably from the carb cleaner. I have a few destinations to go before smogging, so it'll be nice and hot. Thanks all!

 

[Brons2]

Originally Posted By: ThurzNite

I'm concerned about getting the car warmed up. It's 50 degrees out and raining. I drove 45 min local and 3miles freeway. AC is on, fan speed low, temp dial set to hottest. My meat thermometer in the dash vent says 115-120deg. I was warm in my car, but not "hot". I'm wondering if the cold weather is preventing the engine from getting adequately hot (yeah, I know heater is radiator water, but still). What other methods of getting the cat converter hot on cold days?


If you want to get the engine hotter, don't run the heater. It draws heat away from the coolant. I know, probably uncomfortable when it's 50 degrees outside. Try wearing your ski jacket, if you have one

 

[wiswind]

I have a 2003 Sienna with the same engine.
There were some major changes between '99 and '03.
However, I looked on the rockauto website and the pictures that they are showing of the catalyst system looks like what I have.

I have a "3 way" catalyst system.
This means that there is a "pre-cat" for each exhaust manifold and then the 2 pipes merge into 1 and go through the main catalytic converter.

It is AFTER this 3rd converter that your downstream oxygen sensor will be located.
The wires for the downstream oxygen sensor go up through the floor of the vehicle (through a grommet that should come with the replacement sensor)and plugs into a plug that is located under the front passenger seat.....just inside the left-hand rail.

Downstream oxygen sensor on my Sienna, the wires go up through the floor at the front left corner of the front passenger seat.
You can see the "main" catalytic converter just ahead of the sensor.


The FRONT bank of cylinders has the pre-cat as part of the exhaust manifold.
You can see the A/F Sensor (which is a wide band oxygen sensor) just above a fat section in the exhaust pipe......THAT is your front bank pre-cat.

Front Precat on my '03 Sienna, radiator fans removed.
A/F sensor is mounted into the top part of the body of the pre-cat on my vehicle.



The REAR bank of cylinders has the pre-cat as part of the exhaust pipe with the main catalytic converter.

When I look up your vehicle on the rockauto website, under "catalytic converter" they have a number of pictures.
For the "rear" (which I call the main unit) you will see the big "main" conveter and piping that goes to the banks of cylinders.
By the spot that they branch into 2 parts, you will see 2 small fat places.
The one that is on the pipe that branches off is the pre-cat for the rear bank of cylinders.
The other fat spot is a flex joint.
The LAST picture shows a front exhaust manifold with the pre-cat for the front bank of cylinders.

You will also notice that there are a LOT of different choices.....different fits for standard vs automatic transmissions, etc.
My advice would be to order a genuine TOYOTA system using your VIN, if you should need to replace the catalytic converter.
At this point, you don't know if you need one yet.

As you have been advised already....spark plugs are a ROUTINE maintenance item that would be MUCH higher up my list.

If you go to the toyota website, you can register your vehicle for FREE and get access to the owner's manual, repair history for repairs done at any toyota dealership and any recalls that may be open for your vehicle.
The owner's manual should list the exact spark plug number that you should use.
They called for different plug numbers for different years.
My manual lists BOTH NGK and DENSO numbers, either would be great, although all 6 plugs should be the same (DENSO or NGK)

 

[Vikas]

Please do not confuse with the terminology. Front/Rear can denote contradictory information e.g. sometimes Front/Rear is used interchangeably with Pre/Post Catalytic location vs Front Engine Bank vs Rear Engine Bank. It is better to denote them by Primary vs Secondary and Bank 1 vs Bank2. Usually (not always) Bank 1 is closer to firewall on transverse mounted engine.

SnBm :- n -- Primary1/Secondary2
m -- Bank1/Bank2

- Vikas

 

[ThurzNite]

Update. Still didn't pass.

Test 1

Test 2

I don't think the car was warmed up properly. The guy who did the test let the car sit idling for about 15minutes before testing. I also noticed that if it's not warmed up, there's an exhaust smell, but if warmed, the smell is gone. So now I know how to tell if it's ready.

Since failing, I changed all 3 oxygen sensors (FED-spec). Ran a tank of Guaranteed to pass. Spark plugs are new. I may change out the spark wires since they're cheap. Cleaned out the EGR valve and passages (lotsa crud). At idle, it's not buttery smooth. I might check the compression while I'm changing spark wires. I'm fairly certain the CAT isn't toast since only the HC is high and the other 3 are ok. I'd change all the coils but they're expensive!
Dr J

 

[ltslimjim]

What fuel did you use this time? Try half a tank of premium/regular octane?

Did you ever comment on verifying the thermostat is good? If you change the wires, get a name like DENSO or NGK replacement wires.

Also, since you changed the sensors have you either reset the computer or driven enough miles for the ECU to relearn long-term fuel trims, etc?

 

[ThurzNite]

Yeah, the 2nd test was 87 octane 76gas.

Thermostat is good. Just need to make sure the car is freshly run right at the point of testing. I can look at the coolant reservoir. If it's up to the full line, it's hot and ready.

For wires, I was gonna go with Bosch or dealership. Both about the same price, just that the Bosch are lifetime warranty. Thoughts on this?

I know the 1st test I reset the ecu, then drove to the test. For the 2nd test, I did no reset (and had driven 2 tankfuls of gas between the 2 tests).

Dr J

 

[ltslimjim]

^Depending on the computer/engine, some emissions system take a while before they a 'ready' for testing according to the ECU. Not sure if this is preventing HC from dropping in your app, but something worth considering. Drive it through a couple more tanks before going again, if possible time relative. Try using a a blend of premium and 87, not sure about e-85 and it's helping/hurting HC emissions, but that'd be the next step as far as least expensive option just to get a 'pass'.

Is Bosch the OE part? Bosch 'lifetime' or just pro-rated warranty for life? I'd get the dealer part if they are the same price, JMO.